Truth Over Targets In Property Sales

Estate agency and mortgage broking sit on the same fault line: consumers want straight answers, but too many big firms reward scripts, vanity pricing, and long contracts. I’m joined by John Savage, a self-employed estate agent, podcaster, and ex-military negotiator who does not hold back on what he’s seen inside the industry and why sellers keep ending up stressed, stuck, and unsure who to trust.

We get practical fast. John explains why inviting three agents round for valuations often produces the same outcome: the best talker wins, not the best operator. We dig into a simple way to flip that dynamic using a set of direct questions that test an agent’s track record, pricing accuracy, and ability to manage risk. We also talk about what “good” looks like when you treat a home sale like a project, from getting the legal pack ready early to building a plan for when viewings stall or chains wobble.

Then we connect it back to mortgage brokers and the wider property transaction. We unpack conditional selling, the pressure to use an in-house mortgage broker, and how that tactic can spike buyer anxiety while undermining the trust a client has already built with their own adviser. Along the way, we look at why personal brand and social media education are driving an overhaul in both industries, and why AI will raise expectations without replacing the human job of calming, qualifying, and steering decisions.

If you care about ethical property advice, better client outcomes, and building a business on trust rather than targets, listen now. Subscribe, share this with a broker or agent who wants to do it properly, and leave a review with your biggest frustration about the home-moving process.

I help employed mortgage brokers go self-employed with clarity, confidence and one-to-one mentoring. Find out how Pathways or Coaching works at craigskelton.co.uk

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Transcript

Why An Estate Agent Guest

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and welcome to this week's The Mortgage Broker broadcast. My guest this week is John Savage, and John's current the podcast slightly different uh this week because he is a stage agency based, so he's never been a broker, never worked in the mortgage industry, he's ex-military and then got into a stage and say over 20 years ago. But I wanted to get his take on a stage and say he does think slightly differently. He's a podcaster, he's an author. Um, but yeah, I just want to say he's not corporate, he's self-employed. So I think it's good to get his take on the stage and see his thoughts around his industry, how there's a lot of alignment with the stage agency and mortgage broken. Obviously, there is from a client point of view, people set buying and selling houses need mortgages too. So there's obviously the integration with that. But in terms of thought process with aligned alignment and also as well from a self-employed point of view, just very different, different way of thinking and different thought process and different mindset with the whole stage and say that is quite relevant to the mortgage broker world as well. So, yeah, let's stop me waffling, let's stop me talking on about it, doing the intros, let's just get John straight into the podcast. I've been in that large corporate stage, so I've worked in Countrywide, I've worked in Connells, um on but on the mortgage side of things. And um, yeah, it is um there are plenty of people out there that shouldn't sleep at night, but they do sleep at night, and that's just how they're sort of built for the rest of their working lives and then they're working their career, they'll never change what they do because but that's that's why they're employed and they're employees and they would never be self-employed running their own businesses.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, you know, absolutely. And here's the thing though, right? I don't see what I have an issue with, what I have a problem with in that that corporate space or those independents trying to keep up with the corporates, right? The issue that I have is not that they lie, not that they mislead, not necessarily that they're talking absolute shite, right? And saying things that sound nice to get people signed up to long contracts. What I get really what really bugs me is they pretend that they are something else. Now imagine if they were open and honest about being a shyster. About being, look, we'll just tell the buyer whatever we need to tell the buyer in order for that buyer to actually get the place sold. We will absolutely overvalue your home, right? Because we're gonna try and see if we can get some record money for the crack. Probably won't happen, but that's what we're gonna draw. A seller, then, if they actually went, oh, do you know what? That sounds amazing. I love the way you think. Yeah, because not all sellers believe what I believe, right? There are sellers that are point blank refuse to use me. My minimum fee is 2%. I don't do this 1% game, not interested in it. I won't won't I've since I become self-employed, there's not a chance I'm ever gonna do less than 2% because I know how hard it is. And then to sell someone's home, that is, right? And navigate the dangers, so to speak. But if an agent was completely honest about like, look, we are a bunch of shysters, and a seller was able to make an informed decision about whose contract they signed, happy days. The problem is that I'm getting in my inbox or people commenting on my TikTok, my TikTok roughly gets about a million video views per month. Okay, wow. Yes, right now that is amazing and good for me, but I should be getting maybe one or two video views per month in my world in the sense that why are people asking me my opinion? Why are sellers reaching out to me currently on the market and saying, John, can you help me? That that should not be happening.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

No, it shouldn't be happening, absolutely not.

The 21 Questions That Expose Agents

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, and that's and that's that for me is is like that's only because of the injustice of this industry where people portray themselves to be experts, a seller signs up, and if you are that way inclined, that type of seller where you just want the truth, tell me what I need to know, show me the way forward, right? Provide me with the proof of your claims, let me at least be able to digest this information, right? And then I'll make a decision from there, as opposed to the biggest mistake sellers make is inviting three agents over to the property. That is a huge, huge, huge mistake. Because those three agents, of course, their business model was to win instructions. They are being um graded and rated by the amount of instructions they win, not necessarily by how many of those properties they sell. And so when a seller invites those three agents because everybody says get three agents around, how do you not know, or how can you distinguish between those three agents? How do you distinguish between them? How do you know who the one that or the two that are saying things that sound nice versus the one that actually is telling you the truth? How do you know who that is? They don't. So I always say to the sellers, go to the link in my bio, download my ebook. In that ebook, there's 21 questions. Please copy and paste those questions, email those questions to every single agent in your local area, ask them to answer these questions. They should be able to do this within an hour, right? Like literally, if they're busy, maybe at the end of the day, but they should all be able to answer these questions. They are not hard to answer. For example, in the last 12 months, how many properties have you brought to market and how many of those have you sold? Things like um, how is the local, national, and international economies affecting the sale of my home right now and other properties? Um, can you send me a list of other comparable properties that you've sold? Yeah, how much you got for them versus how much they were marketed for? Stuff like that, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Basic estate stuff that you should be able to and vendor stuff that you should be able to should be asking that any estate agent should know. So they're not out of the ordinary, like you say.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Exactly, right? And then there's three other questions, which is when those agents do come round, the ones that you now selecting, because ultimately, it's what I say to sellers. You are when you go to sell your home, you'll be you're creating, so to speak, a mini company of which you are now the CEO. And your spouse is the CFO, right? And you are looking to hire a project manager, not an estate agent, a project manager to come in and project manage the sale of your home. So not just delivering maximum amount of money, right, for your home, but also to the very best buyer, which may not be the most amount of money being offered, right? A buyer that can actually complete. And then if things don't go necessarily that well, you shouldn't be expecting crickets. You should be expecting that project manager who, right, maybe phase one didn't go to plan. What's phase two? Yeah. And are they really going to war for you, or are they just going to go, you know what? We've got a long contract signed, it's on the market right now. They can't go anywhere. There's a 28-day notice period. What we'll do is we'll just deal with Ethel, and because Ethel's place now, you know, like it's ripe for a price reduction, and then we'll just do that.

unknown 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Which they're also targeted for. Which they're that's also a number that they need to hit.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Exactly. Exactly that. Whereas, you know, I've had it where the director come in, you know, I want you to overvalue everything by 10-15%. This is the new guy to make sure we get instructions. And I'm going, mate, we are not worried about getting instructions. I mean, there was a director that came in once, and up to that moment he came in, I'd been on like 63 valuations. And 44 of those properties that came to market, we were instructed on 41, and I sold 41. So I was like, look, it's not a it's not a process of actually selling the house or a process of having to lie to win the instruction. I'm winning all of the instructions that are coming to market, bar three, right? So it's we got a marketing problem. This industry is screaming out for a Martin Lewis type character to just tell people what the score is, to allow consumers to make an informed decision. I really don't like that John Savage. There's loads of people that don't like me, Craig, right? They don't like what I say, they don't like what I stand for. That's brilliant because they're never going to call me and they're never going to say, John, can you help me sell my house? They're never calling me. Versus the ones where I go, do you know what? I really like the way that guy thinks. Well, how easy is that to win instructions? And I'm sure, and I'm sure it's the same for you, maybe when you're coaching brokers, maybe new to the industry or new to being self-employed, and then maybe that you have part of your course which is talking about look, how can you make it easy for yourself before you even get on a call with a potential client? Do you know what I mean? Um and like one of when when someone wants to get on a call with me, they have to fill out a 65 questionnaire, like 65 questions on a Google form before they can get on a call with me. Okay. And that well, who else in a state agency would even dream of doing that?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

No way. No. It's the total reverse of that. It's the exact opposite of that, John. That's the thing with it. And that's just it. And they say that is and is it like the the industry as a whole that needs a whole like is is the snippets of other people that are like you in terms of the way they're thinking of from your experience, is it the whole industry just needs a overhaul?

Sell Your Home Like A CEO

SPEAKER_00 9:28

I think we're going through an overhaul right now. The rise of and probably the like the rise of self-employed mortgage brokers has probably been a lot it sounds to me, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it's ahead in terms of probably not alien. Whereas right now, and especially over the last three or four years, the self-employed agent is it's nowhere near the numbers of actual agents across the UK, uh England and Wales, but it's rising rapidly because um there are agents out there working inside those independents, working inside those corporates, where they are like KPI, KPI, KPI, KPI. And these guys are probably generating a lot of income for these businesses and gone, do you know what? For 150 quid a month, plus my ICO, plus my um property ombudsman, plus my public liability insurance, plus my, you know, like that, it's actually cheap as chips to run this for myself. And actually, I'm good. And so what we're seeing now is a lot of agents who wanted to be like uh I don't know if you've heard of a guy called Perry Power, he's based in around Ryegate, sort of Southgate sort of uh uh uh Gatwick type area. He was like the forerunner of being really quite brutal, doing a lot of videos on Facebook, you know, creating a real brand. Um uh and he'd been doing it for years and years and years, and now what's happening is people are gradually starting to move away from the independent on the on the high street and the corporate and actually going it alone. Not to say everybody is making a success of it, not everybody is capable of doing it, and there a lot of it is you know a bit of luck being in the right place at the right time. Um, but there's certainly to your question, like, is there a change or does it require an overhaul? It's going through that period. I think a lot of people becoming, especially with AI, are becoming very savvy about how things should look. And AI is not gonna take over because absolutely this is certainly an emotional process, and you need an agent to be able to calm everybody down, an agent to be able to properly navigate for people, do what's right, and AI is not gonna be able to do that. Um, but it is ripe for an overhaul, and I think we're going through that process now. I have said in the past year, I said, I reckon in the next five to seven, definitely ten, but in the next 10 years, a state agency is going to be completely different in terms of the personalities that are running it. And I think it's gonna become more about who the person is and who a seller resonates with more, as opposed to listening to the if you think I'm getting a million video views per month on TikTok, right? I'd say 90% of those, 95% of those people are not contacting me. But what they are doing though is that they are getting educated and they are working out very quickly what good looks like.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Um and so yeah, it is, yeah, it is just no, I think I think it's it's good to sort of see that because obviously my background, corporate estate agency, going to mortgage service, set my own business up nine years ago. So I left that sort of sales management kind of world and the micromanagement and all the rest of it. And there are more back then, and probably the five years before that, there was brokers who were who were an estate agency. Few of them, a lot of them just stayed there and sort this is I'm earning very well because basic salaries were okay, commission was good, but lead lead generation, which is key with all this with regards to mortgage brokers, I'm getting leads fed to me every single day. Why would I want to move anywhere else? And I'll suck that up and take the pain of being micromanaged and and sort of the percentage of my share, shall we say, to then the there was a bit of an awakening, and then now even more so that brokers will go through that. It's been a bit of a transition where brokers would go into a stage and say, learn to how to apply the trade, learn how to be good brokers, and then set themselves and then go think, right, I'm left now, go and set myself social media, can buy leads in, can set my website up, all the rest of it, I'll build, I can build the brand. What I'm sort of finding now is that people are sort of jumping that step and going, right, do you know what? I'm getting my theme up. I want to go straight into having my own business. So I'm go, I'm going, and that's to be fair, that's quite a few of the bro, most of the brokers that I work with just jump that estate agency step, shall we say, and go, I'm just gonna do this for myself from day one. And so that's been quite a transition. And it's just interesting to sort of see, because even though I work very closely with estate agents, it it and I still did when I set my own business up, but like now I don't. It's it's interesting to sort of see, because you're still in that sort of in this agency world, what your take on that is, and understanding, yeah, people are waking up to the fact that using things like AI, you're right. I and I'm a firm believer that I don't know long, long term, but certainly over the next sort of 10, five to ten years, there will be still the interaction of human beings within our, and who knows where AI is going to go. People could easily get fed up with it as what they are as excited with it right now and think, you know what, as we're human beings, I just want to deal with a human being. And yes, this is quite an emotional buying and selling your home is quite an emotional process to go through. So the reliance on AI for that, people will still want some interaction, but that interaction is what you're talking about from where I'm sort of sitting and thinking about this. Is that do I just want your box standard, corporate, target-driven, KPI-led estate agent that will just tell me all these things that I want to hear and all the rest of it? Or actually, do I want to see somebody on my social media, build trust and a better rapport in the relationship with that individual? And know actually that if I'm if they're sat there in my home, which it is today, and I want to sell my home and they're sat on my and they are actually sat on my sofa, I want to feel as though I know that person already, and actually I do trust them with this my investment because there's a lot of money invested in people's homes, and that will that will never change.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Absolutely, absolutely, and it and that is you're so right when you're talking about the social media side of things, at least being able to not just for you and I are having this conversation now between us, but when, of course, when you upload your podcast to iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever else they actually uh go, then you're talking one to many, and those people are getting to understand who you are, what your thought processes are, what you stand for, and then it just makes it easier um to get instructed because people feel like they know you even before they've met you. Like when I go to someone's house, well, by the way, again, and I think this is so important, when you're talking about that trust and people feeling like they can trust you before they've even met you, how many properties do you think I've been to? And by the way, I only work with five clients at a time. I try to get myself disinstructed before I get myself instructed, so I'm trying to lose as well, right? But how many people's properties do you think I've been to before someone said I'll sign your contract to work with you? How many have you been to? Before that person signs a contract.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Well, I think we because people have bought into you and know you and feel as though they know you're already, then they're ready to sign as soon as you walk through the door.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Absolutely. So I have never seen a property in the flesh in since like over the last year, since I've been doing proper agency by myself. I've never actually been into a person's home before being instructed, like actually contract signed.

unknown 17:40

Okay.

Self-Employed Rise And AI Limits

SPEAKER_00 17:40

The first day I go into a property is when we're doing the photography. Right. Okay. So that's the power of really getting for those people to get to know, like, and trust me. And also as well, for those other people that do not like a single word I say, I'm also giving them an option as well. I'm giving them an option so they know exactly what they're getting with me, so they can say, absolutely not. I am never going to work with that guy in a million years. Yeah. Um, which is which is beautiful. So there is that transition. I'm impressed that there are brokers out there that are bypassing what you say in terms of doing the agency routes. I also get why a lot of brokers and a lot of agents don't go self-employed because it's it's scary, right? Where am I gonna get my leads from? Yeah, and so if I'm if I'm being slightly micromanaged, but I'm getting those leads and it's and it's putting money on the table, then happy days, obviously happy days. And for me, oh man, before I actually started working for myself, I spent a long time asking myself one question how am I gonna get started? How am I gonna get my first property? How am I even, you know, what how, right? So the how was the thing that became the obstacle for me when really I and now I look back, I go, what an idiot.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

We can all do that. We all do that though. Like in terms of the people that have actually made made the jump and done that, then we all go, yeah, what the ones that make it work, obviously, sort of go, why, what like what? I'm just because when I look at your because we've gone straight into podcast with no introductions, no nothing, which is totally off-pieced in terms of my normal agenda with the podcast. So we we will do an introduction and we'll pull that back into the to the beginning, or we may not, I don't, I don't know. But what you look at your I when I look at your background and listen to you and listen to your podcast and watch your sub like your content, how did you get into a state agency? What like you've got military background and then you've sort of done a bit of sort of got into the corporate sales negotiating and then up then sort of why a state agency? Why what drew John Savage at that age to go, do you know what? I'm gonna get into this ruthless industry, shall we say back then?

From Iraq To Estate Agency Lessons

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Do you know it's so funny? So the day that we were actually recording this was the day we crossed the border into Iraq 2003, right? So which was how many years ago is that? That'll be 23 years ago, right? And um so when we did Iraq, so I'm lucky I've I've I've never fired around in anger, which is something I'm eternally grateful for. So I've seen bombs and bullets, friends of mine have unfortunately you know taken people out and stuff, and not a single one of them feels good about it. 17 of my mates have died since 2003 um across Afghanistan and Iraq. And um when we got back off that tour, um I basically did another tour, uh uh, the first tour of Northern Ireland. And during that tour of Northern Ireland, and bear in mind we had done like six months in Iraq and stuff, been on the invasion. Um my girlfriend then, my now wife, said to me, We're expecting our first child. And the moment she said that, and that was too late, middle of 2004, moment she said that, I was like, right, that's it, I'm done. I cannot have a child grow up without their dad. And I loved, loved, loved, loved the army. 96 of us started day one uh basic training in uh for uh parachute regiment selection, and 17 of us made it to the end, right? So it was like uh a real good feel factor. Yeah, felt like top of the world, you know, I'm proper elite. Look at me, I've smashed it, right? Now, um when I signed off, we I was like questioning what I should do. I think I'm alright at sales, I'm thinking I'm good at sales, then started watching this documentary about Green and Co. Who I think Hampson's purchased, right? North London Agency. And it was like a fly on the wall documentary. And they were following this one particular negotiator round, and he said he had during basic training, had a 180 pounds on his back, right? Now, during basic training, parachute regiment selection, not once did I have, I think the most I carried was about 70 kilograms, so almost 180 pounds, but that was just 70 kilograms filled with rocks, just to see who could do a particular test, right? And it was brutal. Could not even stand up. When we crossed the border into a rock, right? I weigh 145 pounds. I was carrying 183 pounds on my back. Bombs, bullets, radio equipment, all the rest of it. I could not stand up. So I was like, there is no way on this earth that lunatic who didn't pass basic training could do my job, but I could absolutely 100% do his, right? Um in as a negotiator. Yeah, yeah. But but when I um then got into agency, I was the world's worst negotiator. I got more complaints than offers. Buyers were complaining to my manager that I was showing them the wrong property. And I was like, How could I be showing them the wrong property? They asked to go and see it. How's that that you're right? But they were right, I was wrong. Because I was basically doing what negotiators do today, based someone's credibility on number one, that person's asked to see a property, and two, that buyer or potential buyer has said they have a mortgage in principle. And that's they're not discovering why that particular property first. Sod the finances, we can come on to that, right? But through a severe lack of proper um buyer qualification and a game understanding of consumer psychology, which I never had, and my colleagues didn't want to help me, they were hoping I would fail. I used to just sit around the corner in the pool car with my head in my hands going, what have I done? Who are these lunatics that I'm working with? Because, of course, back in the military, if I want something, I get given something. If somebody wants something, I give it to them. If I if I, for whatever reason, try to hide the truth or try to, you know, say things that sound nice, I'm gonna get punched straight in the face, right? And yet now I'm in this industry where I can say what I want. Yeah, I don't have to provide much of a service because these people are tied into contracts they can't get out of, and I hated it. The only reason I didn't leave was because mention my daughter was going to be born, so this was August, she was gonna be uh due date was November, I didn't have any other job to go to, and I'm now two, three months in and I'm going, do you know what? I just need to stick with this. Um uh and then I started reading copywriting books, not sales books, but copywriting books, and those copywriting books was then made it all about them, the actual consumer, the buyer, the seller. And I started to work out consumer psychology and why people actually buy, and then I was like, oh my god. And then actually my career accelerated within a couple of years I was a sales manager. Um, but then started the whole process again of being beaten up and spat out by other agents lying, saying things like John's just trying to make a quick buck, or John wants to sell your house cheap so he can sell it to one of his developer mates, or John, you know, like and all these lies, and I and I didn't know how to defend that until I discovered how to defend that, which again, which was basically undermining other agents without seeing seemingly looking like I was undervalued uh undermining them. Undermining them.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, which which is quite but and that sort of when you it's quite a distinct thing with the industry when when I look back at a state agency, because now in my world is obviously 99% mortgage broken. That's the the world that I'm in. And the brokers that I work with, the brokers that I know have got a very abundance mindset, so they all know they they're very much around helping and supporting each other. That's the culture. Whether I sort of like the pod this podcast itself is an abundance mentality podcast. Like, I'm not sort of saying that I have all the answers, but it's about helping and sharing and supporting other brokers that just listen to this podcast free of charge, it costs them their sort of 20 minutes, 30 minutes, bit an hour of the time each week. But the mortgage broken industry was very much around helping and supporting each other from a self-employed point of view. Go back to the employed world of mortgage broking, sat in that estate agent, and you've got Connells, you've got Sequence, you've got Countrywide, you've got LSL, you've got all these other the independent, and you've got six high street agents all with a mortgage broker. I look back at that now and think, well, all they were doing was the broker would just slagging off the other the five other high street mortgage brokers they were in town and giving them reasons why they should be using them, not based on service of what they were providing, it's providing on on the back of how shit the other mortgage brokers were, which is exactly what you're talking about from an estate agency point of view.

Chains And The Hidden Work Of Selling

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and to add to that, when I said earlier about like the agent, really, you're not employing an agent, you should be employing a project manager to oversee everything. There's so many different things that are happening. The relationships with people like you and the people that are within your network, uh, really good solicitors, really good conveyancers, you know, and or handling actually not a very good solicitor or not a very good conveyancer, people that are just like they'll do it when they want to do it, you know. Um, and also handling other agents as well. Um, it is so important that the seller is employing a project manager. Because as far as I'm concerned, and you may have the same view about mortgage brokers, but in my world, I'm at the centre of everything. And so it means that I have to have my fingers in so many different pies and have to understand how to talk to different people because I can't just talk to all people the same way in very military fight. I have to, you know, put flowers around words. Um, and so it is hard, and especially which is why I say the project project management side of things, is because I want to know that I'm working with another agent who is trying to sell someone else's house that happens to be in the same chain as me, and myself and that other agent that have never spoken to each other in our lives fully understand the nuances, the emotional stress, the pain, the heartache, and all the other things that come with someone selling their home, then trying to navigate all of everyone's egos, right? Because people dig their reels in about what they're going to do next and what they're not going to do. And can actually we mold and shape them the right way to get the right result for the entire chain. And I look at it sometimes and I think, oh my God, you know, there's me and one other, there may be like a chain of four other properties. I know myself and one other agent is actually getting this entire chain through. We probably should be paid a hell of a lot more than what we're being paid because we're doing everybody else's work for them. And that's what I mean by the project management. And, you know, finding those agents. I sold a house in Bristol, so my all my sales, UK-based in terms of not Scotland, because I don't know the Scottish system, but certainly England and Wales. So I'm not local to a specific area, right? Um, but there was one property in Bristol where I said, you know, to the sellers, um, I will help you. But you know, the way in which I want to help you in this instance, I'm gonna email and contact all the local agents, about 18 of them, to see who actually can help. And part of that was sending those 21 questions I mentioned earlier. One agent said to me, Um, when I said, 'Did you get my questions?' He responded with, I don't want to deal with your over-controlling and over-authoritarian methods. I was like, Wow, you can't just answer these questions. Mate, I am working for the seller here who's paid me 500 quid to interview local agents. And that I thought you were portraying yourself as the expert in the uh in the area, like the best. So if you're the best, how are you not able to answer these questions? Anyway, that property, cut long story short, had been on the market with another agency for about 14 weeks. Um, they thought they were under offer for 10 of those 14 weeks, and then when they eventually went to the agency to say what's actually going on, what's this buyer doing? They found out the actual buyer couldn't get their money out of a um uh an investment in Africa, right? And they never knew that for 10 weeks. They thought we were under offer for 10 weeks, and the agent just wasn't able to sell. Now, to put some meat on the bones, the one agent, a guy called Michael Hobbs, young guy, mid-20s, phenomenal, phenomenal, right? Michael Hobbs property. What an agent. Within four days of taking that property on at the right money, which was 325, got it under offer for 327, so two grand above its asking price. Within 36 days of that property, the the full contract package being received, which came seven days after it went under offer, that property had exchanged and then completed two weeks later. The same agent had another property on the same road, exactly the same footprint, right? Size, layout, everything, same money, and it was still on the market at the tail end of last year. And we're talking about what Michael did in the summer of last year. And that's that's what I mean. So, and those agencies, they all basically told me to sod off. They're not answering my questions. And it was just like, that's why I say to sellers, please ask the agencies questions because you want to know is that agent you do employ, if it goes wrong, if it goes tits up, are they going to war for you? Are they going to deliver everything they said that they were going to deliver, right? Even if things go wrong. And Michael didn't need to do any extras because he set the sale up correctly from the beginning, where the the original agent lied to get the instruction and then half-assed everything. And so agents agents do not help each other, other than what you said about your industry, other than the other self-employed agents that will help each other, you know. Um, and I've given property away. Uh, there's a guy called David Warburton, runs a business, um uh sort of Nottingham, Leicester, that type of way. Derby, and he is incredible. Well, I knew that he just recently sold a property on a particular road, synonymous with the area, and I called him and I said, Right, mate, I've got an instruction for you. I I actually took no money for that, I just gave it to him because I knew I never knew the area as well as he knew the area, and because I knew that he was there, I was like, Why would I get involved? I don't need to, I can just go, there you go, hand that over. Um, because reputation means everything to me. Um and so one thing I'm not gonna do is kill my reputation by introducing another agent to a seller that is actually not gonna perform. So um uh yeah, that's so again, David Warburton, like Burton James agents is his name, is anyone's listened to this, and just incredible. And then that's what I mean. That's what I say to sellers in every postcode. There is an incredible agent. That's why you ask these questions. Because if you ask them, then you find them, and then you can go lovely. Then you don't have to call me and pay me 47 quid for half an hour of my time to say, John, can you bloody reposition my property for me? Because I'm stressed out of my nut and I cannot get any sort of traction with my current agent. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

What's just what's the reaction? Is that the general reaction in terms of you sending through these sort of or the sending through the 21 questions and sort of because I'm thinking of particularly the large corporates I've worked in, and thinking if they got those questions to it, they think the ego might be one, and you'd probably help me in the direction in terms of what your what your thoughts are. But I know quite a few people that I've certainly worked with in terms of sales management, if they got that through, they'd be sort of hang on a minute, we're like, why are you questioning what I do and and starting to really sort of react sort of inwardly for want of a better word, in terms of sort of having their sort of their brand and their reputation questioned, and sort of like who do you think you are kind of thing, asking those questions. Is that sort of you're smiling, so I'm hoping is that sort of like how what the sort of you had that before?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's it, that is exactly because that's not the business model. The business model is not to be accountable, the business model is to say things that sound nice, to get the instruction, to get the big long fat contract signed. As an example, right? There's a house that I was looking to sell recently, and I said to the sellers, look, is it that there is the price completely wrong? So on paper, the price for the house, perfect, right? Bang on the money, right? On paper, in terms of everything else that's sold, so on and so forth. But we're not selling. So I need to know is it the market or is it the price? So I reached out to about um 35 agents in that area to try to create a relationship with them in order to um uh see if there was someone that was there that could help. Anyway, one agent contacted me, didn't realize I wasn't the seller, and I wasn't gonna tell them that I wasn't the seller. So I started asking them questions. And one of those questions was, How long is your contract? And they said, Oh, no, no, we don't um we don't believe in in contracts. No, no, there's no there's no length of time in a contract. I was like, oh mate, that's that's great, because you know, I don't want to get myself tied into a long contract with an agent, and then the agent, you know, just says things and they don't deliver so and so. So I'm pretending to be the seller. So I call the sellers up and I call the sellers and say, right, I've just had this conversation with this particular agent. They told me that there's no contract to sign in terms of like length of time. Um, this is what their fees are, this is what how they operate and what they would like to do. And I said, Look, let's get them over. Right? Let's get them over because to get their view on what the pricing actually should be and what they could do. And if they can bring a buyer to your home right now, I will step aside. Literally, I will just I will cast the fee away, I'll step aside, no problem. Cut long story short, how long's the contract? 20, 22 weeks. 22 weeks. Why why do that? Why tell me? I'm the seller, tell me that your agency doesn't believe in a length of contracts, the value goes round, the sellers then say to me, the value is an idiot, right? Literally, just an idiot, had nothing prepared, wasn't talking, just just basically just trying to get the instruction. Um, and 22 weeks. And I was like, wow, come on, come on, guys, you can do better than that, surely.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You know, that's it's just numbers, it's just it's just numbers. That the problem with it is it's like you said, John, it's that you work with five people at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Five edge, five, five, five basically sellers at any one time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah, five sellers at any one time, because you know that you will deliver on what they're at. You know that there's sort of no hidden and there's no bullshit, there's no numbers that you know what that you know that number, you know that number works for you. Well, you don't need to do eight, you don't need to do ten, you don't need, or you can do ten instructions this week, you can do twelve next week. All these corporate things that like are not for the good of the seller, they're just for the good of that board that sits so friggin' high up in this the industry. But like for you, it's like, but why like you say why would you say why would you say they're thinking that you're the seller? Oh no, no, we've got no contract, and then the the value goes round to sign this contract. Well, I've been told there's no contract. Like, what like who sort of like how does that how does that become acceptable? And who thinks that's acceptable?

Incentives That Turn Agents Against Sellers

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Exactly. So if I take you back just to uh another story where I met up with a CFO of a 55 chain um independent, and so offices, you know, southeast um England, so from going in sort of like southwest London and then out that way. And when I was speaking to him, he said to me, What do you care, John, what a seller ends up getting for their home? What's it got to do with you what they end up achieving? Your job is purely to win the instruction, is purely to win the instruction. That's your job. That's it. And the way it works, John, is that if you get 40 instructions, how many of those are you actually trying to sell? And I'm looking at him thinking, what is going on here? He said, Yeah, that's right. 5%. So 5% of those is what we should be looking to sell, right? Um and I was like, okay, and how's that work? And he said, Because these people, they've been on the market for so long that they will end up coming to you for the price reduction. And then when you have got these people because they can't get out of the contracts, 22 weeks, by the way, when they can't get out the contracts and that happens, then you just keep pumping another one in regularly, get those price reduced, and move on. When I finished that conversation with him, I then called somebody that worked for that brand, right? And I said, mate, is this true? Because this is what I've just been told. He said, John, it gets worse. The negotiators are incentivized, right? So the people at the bottom, the ones that are actually showing doing the viewings, they are incentivized that if Sally gets it under offer, and if it was Philip, right, that got the price reduction down to the level that Sally got it under offer for, then Philip will get 3% commission of the total fee. And Sally would get paid as well. So the actual so the the the listeners are incentivized to get the instruction because they're gonna get a commission for doing that, regardless of whether the property sells or not for a lot of businesses, and the negotiators inside the office they are incentivized to get the um property down as much as they possibly can in order to get it sold. And I was like, oh my god. So the enemy of the seller just doesn't become simply the market, the enemy also is the actual agent that should be protecting them. That they're paying, that that is their money, they are paying, yeah, exactly, and that's why. So put some, you know, slightly slightly different. I'm taking on a property, so for me, um, it will take me between four and five weeks from the moment I actually get officially instructed to the moment I actually do a first viewing, right? And the reason I do that is because I spend the first two to three weeks making sure that we've got a full legal contract package with the selling solicitor, right? But also from a marketing side, i.e., as I mentioned earlier, I am not a professional photographer, I'm not a professional marketeer. So um I want to make sure that that gets done because, of course, you know, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression, as Dan Kennedy says in the number of his copywriting books. So true, right? So again, the pricing strategy, the agent, and the marketing has to be right because get one of those three things wrong, the whole thing's dead and buried. Um and that's why I take it so seriously. But this one particular guy, so I'm taking this flat on in Chelmsford um soon, and I was like, Paul, mate, 200 grand, I am hoping I can get you, but there is no guarantee. Now the other agents were telling him, Oh, yeah, we can easily do this, we can easily do this. He purchased the property back in 2017 for 230,000. And I'm saying to him, I reckon we're gonna struggle to get 200 grand, right? And to the point, Paul, I don't want to take the marketing contribution from you, because I I there's no guarantee we're gonna get if I if we agree that I'm working with you, then I'll go to war for you. But I you cannot, we can't be looking at each other in the eye and staring at each other, going, what the hell's just happened, right? If this doesn't sell, you just give me 500 quid for the marketing. Um, I don't want to play, I don't want to be that guy. And he was like, John, if you can't sell it, no one can sell it. That's why I'm employing you to get my flat sold. And I was like, right, as long as we're both singing off the same hymn sheet. And that is the sort of level of estate agency that I'm hoping in the next five, seven years will be the case, right? Because it comes about more about the individual and the brand that that individual represents. And that's the reason why they're being, along with testimonials, along with track record, along with all that, but that's what they're being employed to do. And I think if we get to that place, then these corporates that are talking about 22-week contracts, sole agency contracts, these corporates that are, you know, it's all about KPIs, uh, corporates where the negotiators end up becoming the enemy of the seller, right? Um, and the agency the enemy of the seller, not actually a protector, then I'm hoping they will go out of business or they change. Yeah, that's that's that's what I'm hoping for.

Honest Pricing And A Better Sales Process

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Um, and that sounds pretty brutal, but it has to be that way because that's not brutal. And when you sort of reached out and we talked about you quite onto the podcast, because people within the mortgage broker community and the people that listen to the podcast thinking, hang on, John Savage a stage and Why is sort of John said what we're talking about stage on a mortgage broker podcast? However, the relevance is true. Like mortgage brokers will be listening to this, thinking, and we see it on social media, we've seen it on in sort of documentaries, panorama, and the rest of it quite a while ago, where conditional selling happens within sort of the so you've got they're doing it from the estate agency side of things, but then they're also affecting the mortgage broker side of things as well, because there is conditional selling going on. They are lying to the buyers, they are lying to the sellers. All these other all these tactics go on that undermine people that have been that are swimming against the tide, gone against the grain of the large corporates and gone, do you know what? I don't want to sit here in this large corporate, lose the will to live, sell my soul, all the rest of these things. And thought, do you know what? I want to do it, make a difference, I want to go out there and do something different. I'm gonna work for myself, can control, and can influence and all and the thing, those sorts of things. Then yeah, sellers need to be aware of this, buyers need to be aware of this from a mortgage broker point of view as well. The people that are the sellers and buyers are mortgage clients. 80% of the UK has a mortgage, people that own a home have a mortgage. So 80% of the sales will involve mortgage, some form of mortgage transaction. So again, it's those people that are being lied to, and all the tactics going on of you can't, we and all the bullshit that you talk about, all the bullshit that's behind this of like, oh, security of sale and all these other things, things that are going on. We need to vet you, like you need to see our mortgage broker because then we can we know the truth. Bullshit, it's just not there to like vet them, it's just to basically to sell them something that and undermine, which is what they do, undermine their existing broker that has provided content, provided education, been open and honest from the start, been seen by the seller or the buyer, and thought, you know what, I've seen them on social media. I really feel as though I've bought into them, trust them as my mortgage broker, I want to go and see them. So all the hard work and effort that these self-employed brokers put in can be tried to be undermined within five seconds. In order to view that house, you have to see our mortgage broker, which they allege doesn't happen, but it does day in, day out, because I've been there, I've been on that other side of the fence and seen that happen. So they can't sort of say it doesn't, but it's all relevant in our industry. You're talking about the estate agent side of things, because um we're talking about the mortgage side of things on my side of the fence because all these things happen as transactions within people moving home. So it is like the relevance that's there, and yes, you're right, that's not like sort of being harsh or brutal. Like it is people just want the truth, they just want to work with people that they know and trust and have the truth sell on the benefits, sell on what you're gonna do, sell on your service, don't sell on the undermining of other people. That's sort of just criminal. Just why would you even do that? And that and you're experiencing it, and I experience it on either side of the fence, and it's just yeah, it's just the other exactly that, and the other thing it does, Craig, right?

Mortgage Broker Pressure And Buyer Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Is the anxiety when a seller is going to sell and a buyer is going to buy, especially if they find their dream home, is gonna go through the roof. And unfortunately, when they say you need to speak to our in-house mortgage broker, right, which got nothing to do with anything other than trying to sell them services, right? Again, where does that put the buyer? That puts the buyer on shaky ground. Because if they don't speak to the in-house mortgage broker, there's a chance they're not gonna get the property. So of course the anxiety is going through the roof. And tell me if you can endorse this, right? Because I was taught a little lesson by a mortgage broker, because the mortgage broker was obviously like trying to incentivize us as negotiators to get mortgage leads, right? And he said, right, for every mortgage lead that I get, um uh I will give you£10, right? And that that quickly backfired because of his own advice. His own advice was, and I say this to agents as well, right? His own advice was you are not a mortgage broker, you are not a qualified mortgage broker, you cannot, you cannot speak about mortgages. But the flip side of that, what you cannot do, because this is what agents do, they've realized that if you say to somebody, would you like a mortgage, even if that person needs mortgage, that person will always say no, right? So the next best thing is, well, before if you're gonna offer on this house, you know, you need to speak to our in-house mortgage broker, otherwise there's a strong chance you ain't gonna get it, right? That's what they go to next, which of course now is doubly spiking the anxiety. So what he said was ask them what rate they are getting. That's it. Ask them what rate they're getting. And then so then he elaborated and said, Look, everyone will know what you're talking about. Yeah, what rate are you getting? We know that you're talking about mortgages, but you're not talking about mortgages. And he said, at the moment, right, I'm able to save people between sort of 80 to 90 quid a month, sometimes 100 pounds a month, on mortgage repayments. So if, let's say, for example, John, you're speaking to a potential buyer, right? Or you're qualifying a buyer, by the way, what rate are you getting? In a lot of instances, they don't know. And that will tell me that they've not actually spoken to a broker yet, if they don't know, right? Um, or if they say whatever they say. And then you said, next question is well, if our in-house mortgage broker could save you between sort of, I don't know, 80 to 100 quid, is it worth speaking to him or her? Right? And most of the time people go, yeah, of course. Because that falls under the consumer psychology as well. One of them being um, one of the 10 being save money, right? Which is why people buy. Um, so again, it's like, yeah, absolutely. All right, brilliant, fine. I've got your details, I'll get Darren to give you a call. That way, then is for they've now not got the anxiety of shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. If we don't say we'll speak to the broker, we're not going to get this property, to now going, okay, oh, this is calm, this is nice. Oh what? I just no obligation phone call with the mortgage broker about what products he's got and actually whether we're both suitable for each other. That's different. So, of course, what ended up happening, the reason why it backfired, was because, of course, we were getting loads of leads, and he was like, I can't afford to buy you all these leads because I'm not winning all of these um people that have obviously, you know, so it ended up it is like costing him too much money. So we were like, fair enough, you have to stop it. But that's what I say to agent. And I learned that lesson, by the way, back in about 2006, and I've said it ever since. And it's and I say to openly say to negotiators, don't ever say to a buyer that they have to speak to your in-house mortgage broker because you are setting the tone the wrong way from the very beginning, and you're causing more damage, right? Because ultimately you are representing your client, and your client, the seller, has never, ever, ever, ever said to you that a buyer cannot buy their property if they don't speak to your in-house mortgage broker. Those words would have never come out of their mouth. So don't make it sound like that's the case. And that way, then what am I also doing? I'm also putting Darren, who is a mortgage broker back in the day, a very competent, one that has whole of market, right? That is able to actually really look after someone and genuinely save them some money. Or genuinely may not save them any money, but actually there's a better product that they can currently use. So that buyer now feels like with zero obligation, if even if they don't buy the one that they're looking through me, well, Darren may have three or four potential buyers that are going to buy somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? And now it's like it's easy. And because I'm now protecting my reputation as a negotiator, a person that can be trusted. Not I'm not there trying to make a quick buck, I'm not there trying to run some money, I'm not there to you know convince people of something. It's actually, would you like, I don't know, one potato or two? Well, that's an easy no, I love one potato. Thanks. All right, cool. There you go, one potato. Um, you know, so it can be really, really easy. And I think that I love what you're doing, Craig, because you're obviously coaching brokers to be the best version of themselves. You've mentioned the sort of like the people that or the community that you've created, which is really looking after each other. So it's more about best practice, it's not about clawing at commissions, right? And it is mutually beneficial for everybody because not I don't know all the answers. Yeah, that's why I want to come on a podcast like this one, because I want to discover what the answers are. Because if there's a million pounds in a sentence that you have, I want to know about it. Yeah. And especially in an industry like this, and I've I'm forever saying this, as agents, we are disliked before we say a word, and we are distrusted before we open up a single front door. And if we and if we recognize that, even John Savage, even with my million video views on average per month, even with like 60,000 or almost 70,000 followers across social different social platforms, if no one knows me and I start talking, they're like, yeah, right, mate. Yeah, all right then. Because I'm they don't know me. I'm an agent.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Exactly. You've got that badge. You've not got the personal badge, you've got that badge.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Yeah, absolutely. So I never tell anybody when they ask me what I do for a living, I never tell them. I'm I I just avoid the conversation. I just don't want to tell them because I'm like, oh man, this is bad. So I end up just saying, Oh, I'm a project manager, that's it. And they're like, Oh, really? And then we take the conversation back to football, you know. Um, and then when people find out actually what I do do, and then they find out that I give all of this free advice, and then they're like, Oh, oh, actually, maybe you are worth someone speaking to someone like you. Do you know what I mean? And then when I am talking about bre best practice, I'm just not one of three, four, five other agents again saying things that sound nice. They go, Okay, fine, John. What do I need to do to get my household? Just just fucking tell me, mate. Yeah, exactly. And that's a much better place to be.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Definitely, definitely. John, we've sort of covered 54 minutes of the podcast. We don't very rarely go on this long, but we have, and with no agenda, with no introduction, with no nothing. I think, and probably we'll have a discussion, but I think we've we've covered so much, but there's so much still more to cover between our sort of mutual industries, shall we say, that are aligned in a lot of ways. So I'm gonna sort of say now, thanks ever so much for being a guest. It's been great talking to you, and I'm actually looking forward to having more conversations because I think we've got a lot more to talk about within our industries that will benefit both our audiences in terms of um yeah, and and looking to revolutionize the way that our industries work and also as well that they're tretting thought of as well. But for now, I really appreciate you coming on. I really appreciate your time.

Final Takeaways And How To Respond

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Craig, mate, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. And uh, yeah, thank you for having me on. And also, look, for me, it's about obviously associating myself with people at the top of their game within the industry. Of course, you are one of those people. So I'm eternally grateful to be sitting on your pedestal. Um, and you need to come on mine because we need to share the love. Um, there's so many good people out there doing good stuff, and it'd be great to have somebody like you on my podcast.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Absolutely. No, definitely, without a doubt. So, yeah, definitely look forward to that invite. So thanks very much, mate. Thanks, John, for coming on the podcast. Looking forward to being on your podcast and looking forward to getting you back on as a guest on the Moggish Broker broadcast as well. I think it was good to sort of see, good to talk about different mindsets, especially around the employed, self-employed, how there's a lot of um alignment within our industries and sort of thinking from a self-employed mindset compared to an employed one or a large corporate one. And yeah, it was just good conversation, good to have a cat, just a discussion around that. And yeah, I'm looking forward to recording a few episodes more episodes on the back of our discussion. So um, so yeah, that's this week's podcast. Thanks for listening. Any thoughts, feedback, please leave it in whichever platform you listen or watch the podcast. Really appreciate it. Please subscribe, please leave a review as always, and please don't forget to run your own race.