A Practical Path From CeMAP To Running Your Own Brokerage

CeMAP gives you a qualification. It doesn’t give you confidence in a first client meeting, a clean process for packaging a case, or a playbook for handling underwriters, lender criteria, and follow-ups when the pressure is on. That’s why we brought Ross McMillan back to The Mortgage Broker Broadcast to explain Fear Academy and why we built it inside Fair Financial for advisers who want to be truly self-employed and build a brokerage with their own brand.

We talk honestly about the gap we see in the UK mortgage broker journey: lots of focus on compliance (which matters), not enough on the practical reality of giving mortgage advice. Ross breaks down what new advisers actually need to practise, including running a real fact find, sourcing with nuance, understanding criteria, using a CRM properly, managing documents, working with BDMs, and taking a case from first lead to completion while protecting the client relationship.

We also get into mindset and culture. Self-employed means no guaranteed payslip, so support has to be real, human, and judgement-free. We explain how the academy’s first phase uses flexible modules over roughly 12 weeks with weekly 90-minute sessions, then continues into longer-term business development and community support across the appointed representative network. No egos, no competition, just people sharing what works and what didn’t.

If you’re CeMAP-qualified and weighing up your next move, listen through and then reach out. Subscribe, share this with a broker who needs it, and leave us a review so more new advisers can find the support they’re looking for.

I help employed mortgage brokers go self-employed with clarity, confidence and one-to-one mentoring. Find out how Pathways or Coaching works at craigskelton.co.uk

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Transcript

Why Fear Academy Exists

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, and welcome to this week's The Mortgage Broker broadcast. My guest this week is Ross McMillan. And Ross has been on the podcast before a couple of times back in uh September 2021, so um nearly five years ago now, also as well in May 2023. But I wanted to get Ross onto the podcast to talk about what I've been sort of alluding to over the past few weeks on the podcast, which is about the Fear Academy. So I wanted to get Ross onto the podcast to talk about that. So for those that don't already, I have set up Fear Financial, which is a network of uh appointed representatives. But what we wanted to do, done that with Lee Rowland, and now Ross is involved as well. And what I wanted to do, we've got the appointed representatives set up. We're slowly growing those and um yep, sort of seeing the network grow. But what we're also looking to do, and what we're now doing, is set up an academy. So for mortgage brokers that are totally new into the industry, C map in hand, but looking for somewhere where they can set up, be supported, sort of share the values of the network, share the culture of the network, but ultimately looking to become an appointed representative long term. The whole point of the academy is to do that. So if you're totally new into the industry, long term looking to become an appointed representative, we can offer that within Fair Financial. So, and Ross on the podcast, because what Ross is doing is heading up the academy. Lee and I are involved with it, but Ross is heading up the academy. And I wanted to get him to talk about it, what exactly it is, why it's set up, the benefits, and how you get involved. And yeah, let's just get Ross onto the podcast. So welcome back onto the podcast. Ross, how are you? I am astonishing, Craig. How are you? Good, yeah. Astonishing is a good word to uh to start this uh Wednesday morning when the podcast goes out. So yeah, astonishing halfway through the week. But yeah, really good. And thanks for agreeing to come back on. I was just we had a quick chat before I hit record and just looking at you you have been on the past podcast a couple of times before, but I didn't realise how long ago it was for you on the podcast. So we've just celebrated, like as I've sort of said in the the intro in a bit, we've celebrated five years of the podcast. So the Mortgage Broker broadcast has been out for five years. You won were one of the first guests back in September 2021, and then back on in May 23, and then we've not had back you're back on since, so uh it's a sort of a welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, no, it is not it's astonishing, it's astonishing to think it was that long that uh first chatted to you, and a lot's happened since then, and then again, even though it was just three years since the last time we we we did the podcast. Obviously, I do chat to you in other times. We don't record every uh conversation we have, fortunately. Um but um yeah, a lot happened, but yeah, time certainly flies and uh exciting times, but it's yeah, exactly. It's it's interesting. Yeah, how quickly time flies when you really have no concept of it, and we were just chatting as well that we're a quarter through the year already, and it feels like the year's barely started. It's um it's just time is an interesting thing, but particularly when you get to our age, yeah.

Ross’s Career Shift And Lessons

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Certainly, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm glad you said our age. So yeah, I was being polite. I was being polite there, but I thought I should yeah, I don't think I'll ever forget I'll ever be be forget that I am uh slightly older than you, so uh fair enough. For those that people that haven't gone back and listened to, well, if they do want to go back and have a sort of uh see how you was um sort of five years ago, three years ago, then uh go back sort of 8th of September 2021 and then 11th of May 2023. But for those people that haven't listened to that, do you want to do uh a brief introduction, Ross? Sure. Yeah, well, I will try and keep it brief.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Um I guess in a nutshell, I've been more than two decades involved in kind of property and in general. I was an estate agent for roughly 15-16 years up in Glasgow, and then made the decision to switch across into financial services and specifically mortgage advice um 2019, my goodness. Uh yeah, so six nearly seven years ago, which again seems like yesterday. Um, and certainly no regrets about that. Um originally was operating under another firm um without my own uh branding or whatever, and then moved across to work with yourself um and develop my own brand, my own company Bluefish Mortgage Solutions, which um has gone very well and has been a great, great move. And I made that initial move to have more control over my marketing and things, and that's a big part of what I do now that I get control of how my business operates in pretty much every way. And um now coming up for 15 months, moved across from a network into uh uh and directly authorised under under uh well sorry, appointed representative under a different network, um but directly authorised rather than one of the big corporate networks, and that that's been a great move as well, which just gives a bit more freedom for the business. But yeah, that that's it. Um uh yeah, so nearly gosh, nearly seven years in mortgage advice, which just blows my mind to be honest. Um hadn't even thought about that. Don't get time to think about it. Um but yeah, great move, and the industry's always changing, there's always opportunity within it, and I guess that's part of what we're gonna chat about now as well.

What New Brokers Struggle With

SPEAKER_00 5:21

So yeah, exactly. No, I think like I say to I think it's just important to it's quite a good thing when we've talked about time to sort of put that into a bit of perspective. That like you said, we we've already the first quarter of the year is already done, and there'll be people out there that talk about the the procrastination, and I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that, and I'll do this, that when, and I'll do this then, and all and then lo and behold, we're already the first quarter of the month into the year and starting into the second quarter, which has uh doesn't show any time, any sort of sign of letting up in terms of uh the the what mortgage brokers are dealing with right now and how that sort of speeds up uh time in terms of the chaos that we're working with. But um, yeah, I think it puts it into perspective in terms of what because thanks for coming back on the podcast. The reason why I wanted to get back on, I did a bit like a bit of introduction before, but I just want to get as the main body of the podcast was that you have been there, you've sort of you've moved across from a state agent, say sort of six, seven years ago, got into mortgage broking, got under working for somebody else, and then you quickly realize in terms of your own brand, your own business, which has then ultimately become your own business. So you have experienced what a lot of people are looking to experience or would want to pursue over the the coming months, the coming years. And I think it was just quite we had a chat about sort of how that can sort of what you can sort of have some effect in terms of what the network is doing in terms of fear. So obviously you're an appointed representative, as you've as you've said, but getting a bit more involved in a lot more things with what we're doing within the network, and it just seemed quite fitting that you your background, you have managed, you have led, you have done all those kind of things in different guises in under different industries, but and that you never lose that ability and lose that skill to to lead and to develop and and mentor people. And I think you just felt like we discussed in terms of looking at I have quite a few discussions with brokers that are looking to get in the industry, sort of trying to understand what the right path is, with the right direction, which what the right network is, what the right firm is, where does that look? And I just thought, as with everything, let's look at how we can bring this together. And and obviously with Lee as well, in terms of because Lee was on the podcast a few weeks ago talking about what we've what created at FIA and looking then now how that fits in with regards to the not just the appointed representatives that we've brought on board, not the appointed representative appointed representatives that have come as part of fear and look and still coming on board now, but more of the brokers that have never sold before, C map in hand or qualification in hand, and thinking, what do we do now? It's then sort of fitting that I wanted to, we wanted to have a chat just to really explain quite different to the normal podcast in terms of interviewing, like with a normally an age 20 rule where I'll talk 20% of the time and you're talking 80% of the time. We're probably gonna switch that up a little bit because we're gonna talk a lot about what we're both doing with regards to the academy. But I wanted to get a bit of a for those people that are listening thinking, I want to get into industry, I don't know where to start, I've just been qualified. What do I do? I think this is sort of fitting, really, to explain exactly what the Fear Academy is all around. You've created this sort of an amazing sort of like six-month program around development, you understand what the key points with that. Obviously, we've we worked together on these sort of things, but you've really taken this forward with regards to the whole workbook, the whole programme timeline, everything else. So, yeah, I think so waffled a little bit there, but in terms of what exactly so when we talk about the academy within fear that you're heading up and you're leaning, you and you're developing why what why was that created?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Well, why why is the really key point? I think everybody's got different businesses, and and as businesses grow, and as I say, I'm now six or seven years into this and growing my own brand and all the rest of it. But I've never had a desire to have other advisors. I've always kind of wanted it for personal reasons, just just to be me, and that was always my objective. Um but what I've also recognised is that and I've I think the industry as a whole can be good at this, is supporting other advisors. I've always tried to do that, give them ideas, but for no benefit as such to myself, just to share my knowledge, and I think it's a great industry for that. Um and then just moving forward, because I've I've done walk the walk, if you like, I've started from nothing in that respect with no industry background as such, to now have my own brand, my own business, which was really important to me to have that control. Then the academy was just a kind of natural progression to help people do what I've I've done and guide them through that whole process. But in a practical way, there's obviously different opportunities out there for how people can come into the industry in different formats. But the the key point, I think, or the differential for the academy is yes, there's a compliance side of things, and obviously that's important, and that's covered. Every network will do that, and I would say the networks in general or the corporates are good at the compliance side of things, and this is what you need to do to be compliant. But compliance is just one part of the the business. Um, where I think I can add benefit, and what the academy is designed to do is to actually how do you practically apply the the compliance element of things, but specifically the knowledge that you need to build a business, to deal with clients, to actually give advice, practical advice within those frameworks, how to generate leads, how to how practically to conduct a fact find with a client, not in a obviously in a compliant way, but in a more realistic way, is like this is real life, this is what happens, and then what actually happens when you've had that conversation with the client, what's the follow-up process, practically what's the follow-up process, and then once you're getting documents and so forth in, how are you actually facilitating that onto a CRM system or whatever system you're using? How are you then sourcing for that client, researching, checking affordability, how are you registering with lenders, how are you dealing with lender BDMs? How do you get from the fact-find position or the lead coming in to actually submitting a mortgage, dealing with the the full process through to completion with protection, all of these things? And then there's so much more to it beyond yes, establish somebody's budget, check their payslips are okay, and and see what the best rate is potentially. I mean, how do you even do that? Simple things like that, which I've certainly seen. There's a lot of training as such from networks, but it's not actually on the practicalities, it's more on the um the regulatory side of things and ticking boxes to some extent in order to get you to a certain position, but they're not actually showing how how do you source, how do you yes, you might be looking in a cost basis, but there's nuance to that as well, and the criteria comes in. How does that all fit? Um, so the academy is designed, and that's a lot of things, and it's not even touch the size of what actually is within the academy in terms of the modules and things that we have within the initial 12-week period is designed to really get the foundations for people to be able to understand what it's actually like to do the job rather than to get CMAP, which is a completely different objective, it's a completely different training thing, is to obtain an exam, and likewise with the compliance side of things, that's obviously vital, but it's it's not really practically telling you how to do the job, and uh that that's the key point, is to help people from the outset understand that rather than potentially floundering themselves, um, whilst trying to develop their own brand, get their head around what is a complex process within the mortgage world of advice, um just as floundering or trying to do it themselves and not knowing what's right, what's wrong, having hesitancy about all that. The academy is there to give you the framework for that, but also to be there myself personally, having been through all as a sounding board and also to directly answer the questions without any um I think sometimes within networks, and it's not to have a dig at the corporate networks or indeed the corporate world, um people are occasionally might be fearful of asking questions um and the consequences of perhaps indicating they don't know what they're doing, and I don't mean that in that that sounds quite bad, but just they're fearful of uh asking questions basically when they're not sure. And and and the whole point of the academy is to help and support people to not to get beyond that phrase, and there'll come a point where well to be frank, I'm seven years, there's people in it longer than me that are still asking questions about certainly specific cases and it's always changing, but the actual like asking like how how do I actually source, how do I find what's the best mortgage, what am I taking into consideration? None of that is really covered in my experience um in a kind of uh kind of formal network or corporate world, and so that's that's what we're trying to do here.

The Self-Employed Reality Check

Confidence Through Real Support

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Um, no, no, and to be fair to be fair, I would like writing down notes there in terms of sort of things I wanted to pick up what you'd sort of talked about, because that's sort of the you you've given us that sort of overview of the and the reasons why this has sort of been sort of created. I think the differential thing is between you're right, there is no real changes within the the large corporate networks. I see a lot of support, what their classes support, what their classes help, what they but that's not really from somebody who's doing it generally. It's generally so it's just so it's not somebody that's actually been that new person in the industry and not had that experience of that rabbit in the headlights of like, okay, I've got my first appointment, first first appointment now. What does that look like? How do I look? And things like that, which I'll come back to in a second. The overlying thing with all this, which I wanted to cover first of all, is that you are not an employee. I am not an employee. We are self-employed people, and you have either people that so something new into the industry, this is like the academy, the whole thing, it's for self-employed people. We we do not employ people, like is it's a self-employed people that want to have the flexibility, the freedom, all the benefits of self-employment with the support there as well. So you and I, the way that we think is a self-employed, is hot, it's I'm not going to define it on the podcast because it would take too long, but we have a self-employed mindset. We are we have been self-employed for a number of years. We understand the difference between the two because we've been both been employed in the corporate world. We're now being self-employed for quite a number of years and are now unemployable, but for the right reasons, we're unemployable. When you you've got this, you've got your CMAP, you're thinking, what do I do now? Ultimately, you want to be self-employed and have your own brand and your own business. You need to be talking to people that have walked that walk and gone down that path. If you sort of turn to the corporates who and the recruitment people of the corporates, like I said, this is this is very generic in terms of my experience with the corporates, in terms of the recruits, in terms of the people that offer help and support, they are employees. They've got an employee mindset, they're not self-employed, they have not gone through what you're trying to go through, prepared to go through, and experience that. I don't think you can ever underestimate the power of talking to somebody who has been through what you're and have those feelings of how am I gonna pay my mortgage, how am I gonna pay my rent, what does this look like, and all those things because if you if you're talking about helping support as an employee of a corporate network or a corporate business or whatever, you're gonna have a very different mindset because you know the last working day or close to the end of the month, you're gonna have some money dropped in your bank account, and really that doesn't matter whether you're helping somebody or not, that's gonna happen anyway. Ultimately, you might get found out, but you're still gonna get paid. Whereas you and I both had the experience of if I don't do something right now, how am I gonna pay my mortgage? If I don't take action, have impact, and yeah, take take action with my business right now, there's gonna be no income by the end of the month, and how am I gonna pay my outgoing? So I think that's a very different mindset. So that's the thing that's sort of wrapped around all this is forget the month one, month three, month twelve for a month for a second. It's like-minded mindsets, like-minded, like-minded individuals, can't get my words out today. Like-minded individuals who've got who have been through what you're gonna go, what you're about to go through. So you're still at the edge of the cliff of for want a better word. We've all jumped, we've all done that and experienced it and realize actually it's not that bad after all. So I think don't ever we can't ever underestimate the actual what support looks like because it is from people that have experienced it. And I think then, like I say, it is it is that very much around this is the compliance, and all the things we talk about are very, very compliant, but it's what happens after that, or what happens around that. When you've having that, when you when you're sat in that first appointment, your first first appointment as a mortgage broker, and you don't feel supported, you don't know who you can pick up the phone to, you do not know where you're gonna go with the end of conversation. All those questions that the clients throwing at you that will happen. And if you don't think if you you've got two aspects of it. You've got the case of I'm sat here as a mortgage broker with my first first appointment. Ross has prepped me, Ross knows what's what I'm gonna go through, Ross knows that sort of questions that clients are gonna ask. But at the end of it, forget what that's important, but at the end of it, I know that I can pick up the phone to Ross or speak to Craig and sort of and say, Where do I go now? And I don't, and I think that's a real powerful thing from when you're dealing with clients because if you've not got that help and support, and you don't at the end of that conversation, all those things that the client's gonna throw at you are just adding on to the mountain of I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And so if they're asking all these questions, you've got no idea where you're gonna go at the end of the meeting to then find the answers to those questions, you subconsciously you're gonna show to that client you've not got a clue what you're doing. Whereas if you you know that at the end of it, you've got Ross to speak to and go, Ross, Ross is there for me, he's a bit of a wingman, and I know that I can ask all the questions that the client's throwing at me, long as I've got them all documented down, I've got somebody to turn to. And I think that's a massive thing when you're first first starting out. No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

I think that the key word, I'm not sure you did use it, but it's certainly what I'm taking from it is is confidence. So the the the the it's support, of course, but it's with the objective of giving people confidence in what they're doing in terms of the role, but also um to overcome the hurdles that that do happen and that and that have confidence that in my well my case, there's been certainly lots of hurdles and things that I've not maybe been able to deal with at that particular post uh stage, but I have now, and you and you just learn all the time from all that, and it's once you start to the more you do it, the more confident you become in it. But it is about having that support network there to portray confidence, even if it's not necessarily there yet. It's just knowing that you've got those foundations there. I mean, that's that is the key. It the first kind of 12 weeks of the academy is the foundation phase, if you want to call it that. And it's not as formal as anything like that, but it is to build that support network beneath a person. Um the pillars that they need to know how do you practically do things, how do you maybe deal with this situation, this kind of question, where do you go to for um advice when you need it, and have that solid base to then be building their businesses, whilst again continue to have the compliance side going alongside it, that's uh it's really important that those two go hand in hand, but it is about building confidence in every element of running your own business. And I think when people are coming to the we are looking for people who are wanting to build their own business um for all sorts of reasons, and and conf there has to be a level of confidence to do that in the first place, um and but I think it's important and that's matched with a structure that will then nurture that um to allow people to actually move forward with confidence with their plans and have faith that there is going to be support there to to go through. And well, in my case, I'm an example of it. So I've I've done it. I mean, I there was no academy or anything like that. I've in some respects self-taught, but I've had the support of certainly yourself, Craig, in the business element of things, but and that's there within the academy as well, and with other ARs that we work with, but it's it's the the the foundations, the fundamentals of actually doing the job practically. That I don't think anybody's delivering that in a practical sense. As I say, there's compliance, fair enough, there's box ticks and box ticking, there's compliance role plays and stuff, but that's not real world. And I I get the point of them and I understand why they're there, but that's not dealing with the day-to-day as to what what's actually involved and how do you um how do you deal with what you you encounter every single day. So yeah, conf confidence and building confidence is a key part of the of the academy for sure.

The 12 Modules And Timeline

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Absolutely. No, I think like you say, I don't know if I did use that word, but it is a it is the the key word throughout throughout all this. So that so we'll cut at the end of the podcast, we'll talk about the like how you start the journey and sort of things. So let's get on to the the initial 12 weeks and what does that look like in terms of timeline? Is that quite rigid? Is it bespoke? What like what's sort of built into that? How do I work with you if like with within the first sort of 12 weeks? Do you want to sort of like give us a bit of a run through in terms of those sort of first three modules?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well, we've developed um I think it's 12 modules overall, uh which are designed to take place over a 12-week period, and not necessarily in a rigid order, and I think that's something that we've always both you and I have been keen to emphasise. It's not a box ticking like we go through week one and we get and then you do week two, and then you do week three, or week three, or whatever, or module three, because and we've deliberately called them modules rather than weeks within the kind of academy workbook that we're um we've designed. Um because different people will have different needs within that, and we totally recognise that. It isn't a formulaic thing, it's it's a it's a joint partnership, I suppose, with with the person coming on board to like where what's your priority right now at this stage? What do you want to know right now? And let's deal with that. Now, over the course of the 12 weeks, everything will be covered, but not necessarily in a rigid order, and we've been really keen to emphasize that, and that it is to the needs of the person coming in, um, what their specific support needs. And some of that's practical, some of it, as I've touched on a few times, is just basic. How do you register with a lender, how do you use our CRS RM system, how do you get on to the on there, how do you source, how all of that that's all carried within it, and then there's um elements in relation to lead generation, marketing, uh, visibility, um some I suppose you call it kind of business acumen as well, just looking at the finances a little bit and just different ways that how to manage that in the early stages as well, which is a practical point for anybody coming in a new business and and having realistic expectations about that, but again, seeing how that can flow, and that's something that um I've certainly got frameworks with I've had from the outset. I can show people the pattern of how my business has developed in some detail so they can see that, and that's just a tool that we'll have to demonstrate like this is how my business this is where it is now, and this is where it started. You just need to have this consistency to have that growth. But again, the benefit of my position within this is a I have done it and I'm still doing it, so uh that's key. So that I mean I wouldn't run through all the the modules, but uh there are 12 of them diary management, um practical things as well, like actually managing the cases. I think that and this is getting quite logistical, I suppose, but you submit the application, you think happy days, but what happens next? How are you actually monitoring uh the progress of that mortgage application, how you're dealing with underwriters, which can be an interesting process at times. Um how does that all work? All of that is is covered in the the first 12 weeks of the academy, and then beyond that, the the second stage, if you like, months kind of three to six is when we've hopefully got the foundations set pretty solid. Um I certainly don't disappear, so certainly the first three months of them they come to the academy is going to be heavy, heavy me, so to speak, um in terms of the practicalities, and always there as a support for people throughout that process beyond that. But the secondary, the kind of three to six months is then going to start more on when you come into in more involved, Craig. Um I guess that's more about developing the business even further, um, and in a with a sort of slightly different um not mindset but just a different view at things, not so much on the tools, so to speak, and and more kind of working on the business rather than in it. But the the as I say, the practicalities I'm I'm always here to help with, and indeed the business growth, but we're we're splitting up the load to some extent on the academy or the or the the uh expertise, if you like. Obviously, you you no longer advise and haven't for a wee while, whereas I'm on that day-to-day, so clearly that's a strength of mine. So yeah. So there's there's a lot in it, and as I say, there's no point going through every single module. But the key point is it is there's flexibility within that framework to operate how people need what support they need, what their priority is, and um where they're coming from, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I think that's I think that's a good point, is in terms of the the aspect of the we've we've the modules are there, we've got the program in terms of over sort of six months and and beyond from that point of view. However, the individuals have got the best of both worlds. You're right, I've not advised for quite some time, so it's a case of using your expertise and your knowledge with regards to advising the day-to-day stuff in terms of um that aspect of it. But then the the beauty of that is that we're both involved with with regards to the whole programme, so it's a case of they will the individual will be working with us for a long period of time. It's not like even though we've got this program, the three months, twelve months, and the rest of it, the idea is that you are you will become an appointed representative of the network, and that's the place you will want to trade your business for the rest of however long you want to trade it for. So it's not so I think, but then we've you've got aspects of both of us interacting during that whole thing. So again, the first three months is very much around they have the weekly sessions with you. So they've got the the 90-minute weekly sessions where they've got they've deal with be heard, they've got that time books in the diary, they've they've got they can you can answer all their questions. So that's the sort of the first three months, and then after that, it's then more of a monthly thing with with me and that the interactions with me. But I think it's sort of like it is very much around what you sort of said there was it's about what they want. Everybody's very different, everybody's very different in terms of what they're starting out as a mortgage broker. They're starting out day one as a mortgage broker, and they know what they want, they know they want to be an appointed representative and have their own business. That's perfect, that's exactly how we sit. It's all the things in between that actually is quite fluid, is quite they will have things that will they will be, I'm saying that you will have things you'll be worrying about in day one, and some of the people will be thinking very differently and having different worries and things like that. So the the modules are very fluid in terms of we clearly display them, these are the the bits that we're gonna pick up. But if you want to pick up X in week one and this in week two, and and you can then sort of pick the bits out and go, okay, that's what I want to do. It's we're not forcing you to sort of say, well, this is what so you've still you've still got quite a lot of. I think the beauty of that is like you've got ownership yourself, because this is the whole point of this, is we want you to take ownership of your own development and your own learning because ultimately you're gonna have your own business, and nobody's gonna do that for you. So you've got a lot of ownership within this anyway. So if we can instill that ownership from day one by you picking up the modules and sort of saying, okay, this is what I want to do now. This wanna pick up, whether it's sort of sourcing, protection, that like whatever that case, whatever the that situation might be, and we will help and guide you because you don't know what you don't know, and you might want some help and guidance with regards to processing and a bit of a path of learning and things that come about, but ultimately you're still responsible for your own learning, which is quite different to other things out there that I've seen, particularly when you're sort of starting out, because you're self-employed, you want to be a business owner, you you want to create that legacy so you've got the longevity within this. We want to make sure that you're not stifled and you are able to do that, but in a very, very supported environment.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, no, that all of that the key is to establish worthwhile businesses for people to run, that's what they're looking for. Um, and that can seem daunting. It can certainly seem daunting if you're you're starting from scratch, knowing nothing. Um, but when there's people round about that are are there to support, and I think the the academy is an important part of it, but within the network as a whole, like fear network, we've got other ARs who are at different stages within the different businesses as well. So it's quite possible that people coming into the academy might might, unlike myself, they might want to be bringing on other advisors in future into the firm, they might have other ambitions beyond what I my business looks like, and that's the beauty of the network and being encountering uh sorry, accommodating different things. But you need to start somewhere, but then once you're getting beyond that and you've got your full ER status, if you want to call it that, then there's others within the network again happy to share how they're building their businesses, and again, that Craig yourself obviously that's one of your major strengths is being able to help people in different business paths, if you like, however, they want their brokerage to look like, which as I say wouldn't necessarily be mine, so there'll be different things that people can learn. So it's a long-term learning, if you like, but it's it's a long-term support network to get people where they want to be, and uh the first six months are kind of um yeah, they're the foundations. I'm going to say it again, is the foundations of a long-term business, not just a uh a tick box exercise, and I suppose that's it. There's no big ceremony at the end of six months or three months or whatever it is. I mean, we've mentioned that time frame, but there's no like you get a certificate and you happy days, it's it's not about that, nor does it suddenly the support stops after six months or three months, whatever. I think that's a key point to make as well. But this is a long-running relationship, I suppose we're looking at, but within that, there is structure to get people where they need to do, and hopefully, uh need to be, sorry, and hopefully answering uh what they what they need to know at the right time in that process.

Network Culture Without Competition

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I think that's it. Like you don't ever understand the the the culture that we have within the network with regards to the support of other ARs as well, because everybody does help each other out. We've got group WhatsApp chaps, we have a group session every single month, which is led by all the ARs, people sharing what they've experienced, what's worked, what's not worked, people are free to ask questions to it. There's no competition within there's no sort of annual and award ceremony, sort of saying the top AR of the year is this, and we're like whether you are so like you're a sole trader who just wants to be that case, always be that way and happy doing what you're doing, and or you're looking to recruit and grow and want to have 10 advisors under your AR. Like you everybody's tread the same, everybody feels the same. It's sort of like there's no, like I said, the you're not in competition with each other. It's a very much around the abundance mindset that that we've had, like since, and I know sort of Lee's got like Lee has that abundance mindset as you and I do, with regards to this whole thing that there is enough business out there for all of us to sort of to go around. So, and I think once you feel that you've got that, there is that no competition, there's not really the egos within the business, shall we say? Everybody sort of feels free to share what they've known. And and being, I think as well, Ross, is that the other things that we sort of see is that people will see and show where they've failed as well. So they will sort of say, I did this and it absolutely fell on its backside. And if you want to do it, it's fine. But this was my learning points from it. People are happy to share that, and I love that aspect of it as well. That people not don't always not just talking about, oh, I've done this this month and I've written this much of my own business, and I've done this, this, and this. Which comes part of it, but ultimately it's also about well, this is where I've failed too, and it's having that safe space where you're thinking, actually, I did this, and people aren't afraid to talk about where they've failed. I'm happy to talk about I've made some absolutely monumental mistakes during the last nine years of being self-employed, but that's part of growing and enjoying doing what you're doing, so um yeah, culture's a sort of big thing with that as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

No, for sure. I mean, I think I have been guilty of sharing numbers and things in the past within the group, but it's always with the intention, and it genuinely has always been with intention, like this is what can happen. It's been for support of people to say, like, yeah, it's it's maybe quieter this month, but well, I'm a big one for keeping figures so you can reflect back and review things, and and that has always been the point of whenever I've shared that. It's because I've shared it when they've been good and when they've been less good, and but it's just to show patterns, and and my good and somebody else's good can be two different things. That was never is never the point, it's just about demonstrating progress and things that potentially can be learnt from looking back on what happened a year ago or and things like that, and and taking learnings from that. And the the benefit of the academy from that point of view, beyond the support within the global network, if you like, or the overall network, is that I can be sharing that from the outset with people who are literally starting at nothing, and so this is this is where it can go to. And but equally, there's parts that's not a straight line, there's ups and downs, and there's all sorts of things, challenges within that. So you're not alone and having experienced that, but this is how you you get there eventually, um, with consistency and and knowledge and everything else that you need to do, it's not going to fall on your lap, and it's not uh we're not supplying uh a ready-made business, and then like you you need to work on your own business, it's it's just a framework and experience that's that's been there, done it, and hopefully can help others do the same.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

No, I think you're right, Russ. I think the regarding to the sharing the numbers aspect of it, if you look at my experience with the large networks, it's award ceremonies and always published in lights, the ones that are doing amazing. But actually, that doesn't not everybody strive to be number one within the network. So when you like you put some context to it, as do the ARs, when they're talking about their numbers, it's not as though we're we're sharing those for the oh well done, and there's round applause, and look how much Ross has done this month, or or anybody else. It's very much around. So people want to understand actually, if they've had a bad month, they want to understand, well, has that been the same for everybody else? And if if it has, then they'll take a little bit of comfort in terms of well, this is the industry and this is what's happened this month, and I've sort of not had a great month, and there's a few other people out there that's not had a great month, and then on the on the but there's no like you when you share your numbers, it's not okay, you just put you're just giving those numbers as other ones do to sort of say this is what I've done. Like, and you share the good, the bad, and the ugly. And that's the sort of thing that whereas with the large corporates, generally speaking, you don't see, you certainly don't you might see, but you certainly don't hear from the individuals who have had a mediocre month. But it's been all right for them because they've had different challenges, different things going on, and but he's just then to put in some what should this look like in terms of I'm now six months in, what should my business look like in terms of written numbers? What should my pipeline look like? What should my lead generation look like? And it's just giving that because it's you, like it's your business, it's not you're not up there competing with anybody else. The only competition you've got is with yourself to make sure that you're achieving what you want to achieve, which is the most important part of this.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

No, for sure. I mean, I was just thinking probably a small seedling of the academy idea that we've obviously now developed was on occasion of shaving, share sorry, sharing some numbers in one of our group sessions, and I'd done a certain amount of mortgages in a week, sorry, in a month, and uh that prompted other people within the network to seek help or or or at least work at how I was a process and what was my process, and more than and I was more than happy and I did some video sessions or whatever to show people like this is actually how I work, and it just kind of started like the everybody has their own way of working, and it's not prescribed in any way, shape, or form, but we can probably all learn from other other people just seeing what how they are doing it. Um and yeah, that that was a benefit of sharing that, and it was nothing to do with the numbers that per se, it was just like how as a one-man man, so to speak, and I don't have any admin or anything, was I doing this, and its process was a part of that, and that's kind of part of how we can demonstrate how that can happen within uh the academy as well on a practical level. So so yeah, there's there's always things to be learned, and people are at different levels and different objectives, but we can we can support them wherever they're they're heading, but at the outset you need to know what you're doing. That's really what you're not you're not gonna get anywhere until you can actually do the job, so to speak, and that's um where I think other networks maybe fall down, is that's not what's in some cases they're they're striving for growth and bums on seats, so to speak, um, and numbers of advisors rather than quality of advisors, if that's too harsh, or or qualities of business. That's that's and that's not no no reflection on the individuals, it's on the the the the um the culture, I suppose, or the objective of networks and things, and I've seen that many times and when objective is growth and just as many people in the door as possible to advise, rather than and then some will stick, some will not. Yeah, that again is definitely not what this is about. It's it's it's about the right people and uh making it work for them or helping it make uh work for them rather than just simply that's great, we've taken on ten advisors this week uh month that's not of any interest to any of us.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

No, no, definitely and I think it's it's a really good point you've made that for you, for for me, the individuals that we we're working with and want to work with are the right individuals. It's not about us going, oh, we've had 10 people join the academy this month, or we've had one person join the academy. It doesn't really matter, it's about helping the right individuals who want to grow and create something that sort of that means something to them. It's like I say it's not purely about numbers, it's about the right attitude, about the right values, it's the right behaviours, and they have to fit within the culture of the like you talked there about the culture we have already, or you talked about I but labelled it with the word culture. That is very key for us in terms of who we are as a network and key for us as who we are as a business that it is about the right individuals bringing, enhancing, and fitting in with the culture that we have already. It's not about somebody who will just sort of well, we know they won't fit with our culture or our values, but we'll just we're just worried about numbers. And I've been there. I have been in that place. And that's one of the monumental mistakes that I've made in the past. When I I have been like a long time ago, it was just about numbers. That's all I was worried about. Numbers, numbers, numbers. Whereas now it's very much around, yeah, we just want to work with the right individuals that have the right values that work the way that sort of fits with us in terms of the the goals and aspirations that we have. And like it doesn't matter whether you are sole trader and always want to be a sole trader or want to have that X amount of advisors. It's all about you as a business owner who has the right values. For certainly for me, that is uh one of the key things, really.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm I'm proud to say that I my business that I wanted to build was on a relatively low volume uh business because I give a very personal service to my my mortgage clients, and that that's what my business is built on referrals and all the rest of it, and word of mouth, and it works great for me, but I've no interest in churning out thousands of mortgages a month or whatever, or hundreds of mortgages. It's really not ever been about that. And the academy is similar. We we practically it's not possible to deliver what we're aiming to deliver here, and the one-to-one uh support if there's ten people coming in every week. It really isn't that's just not practically possible, and it wouldn't be fair on those individuals, never mind uh any pressures it would put on ourselves. So it's very clear that this is a bespoke personal support uh training system everyone academy. You can word it however you like. Um it's it's not that there'll be multiple people at any one time, it's it's about individual support, and in order to deliver that to the level that we want to and to get people to where they want to be, it can't simply be a a kind of cattle marker, whatever you just call it or uh just churning, which is perhaps what happens elsewhere. So yeah, yeah, it's important that that's it's uh that personalised experience.

How To Join And Fit Check

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Absolutely. So that's just so we've gone through a little bit about the academy, explained about the sort of the the time scales and the program and and sort of the the support and and everything like that that people have, and there's no end to this, it's not sort of like uh you don't get a certificate at the end of it and get yourself a badge and then uh thank you very much kind of thing. It's it's like an ongoing thing. So let's bring it back, like I said, I would. Let's so if I'm sort of sat listening to this podcast, sat watching the podcast, thinking I want to know more about this. What does sort of the first sort of part of the process look like between so I'm thinking this is what something I want to look at, something I want to know more about. We can well explain how people reach out in a second, but what does that initial process look like?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Well, in the first instance, really get in touch with typically yourself, Greg, and in the first instance, but obviously I'm I'm open to people contacting me directly as well and um and having an initial chat. There's there's there's no harm in that, and there's never any blockages to that. Uh just to see where people are at, what stage to that. Obviously, in the first instance, people we are looking for people who have already got their CMAP, it's not starting without CMAP. You need you need to have got your CMAP and have a clear uh desire to be setting up your own business ultimately on your own brand and so forth again rather than being just operating with under a firm. So but reaching out to us in the first instance, then typically having a chat, usually with yourself, Craig, I think initially, and then um thereafter with myself in a separate chat just to get to know each other and see how how we can work together and deal with any questions like that. And then there is a kind of compliance process which uh you might pick up, or there's an actual procedure that has to be gone through to allow acceptance onto the academy, and just as with any financial services, if you go through a certain kind of due diligence or to to come on board and then then we take it from there. It's there's no uh great interview processes as such, it's just about having chats and seeing if we're the right fit for people and and vice versa, but there's no uh nothing much more beyond that, and then it's we go on with it.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Absolutely, and I think like it's I think it's important that people feel that they can either so sat listening to this, sat watching this, thinking I want to know more about it. I think it's important that they can reach out to either one of us, so they might feel feel more comfortable reaching out to you because you are at the call first, shall we say, in terms of from a Yorkshireman sort of saying, I don't know if that's how you're saying, but um, but you are sort of so they may want have a few questions around that, and you then start the start the process with you, and then I get involved a bit further down the line, or vice versa. People reach out to me first, and then you will get involved with this. I think the thing is like you say, it is very much around a chat with Louis, sort of it's around sort of understanding not only what we offer as a within the academy and the network, but also as well about that individual having the right values, aspirations, and uh yeah, values is key, really. So um, so yeah, so I think that sort of sums up the academy, sums up sort of where we're at with the academy. So if you are thinking about wanting to know more, then reach out to Ross, reach out to myself through our LinkedIn profiles or copy both in profiles onto the to the podcast uh notes. So or any questions you've got, just yeah, just fire away and we can we'll arrange sort of our conversations from there. But I think we've covered everything there, Ross. Is there anything else we want to add before the end of it? No, I think we've certainly covered everything.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yeah, I think uh yeah, we've we've been on a good hour. I think we've managed to fill it. Yeah, um hopefully not with too much waffle, but yeah, that there's there's opportunity there, and I guess my thing is I'm I'm an example of you can do this, you can build your own business, you can have the kind of work-life balance you want, and that's not to sell the dream because there's lots of hurdles and nightmares within it, but if you go on with your eyes open, which I think is important, then there's opportunity there, and certainly what we're looking to do with Academy is just support people to do effectively what I've done and what others have done, and and um and you too can be uh golfing, crossfitting uh in between lots of other life balance you can have that balance, you can have that balance.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

The we're life balance, Ross.

Closing Advice And Requests

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Yeah, the life balance, not immediately, maybe, but yeah, you've you've got and that's an important part of it, and we do touch on that in the academy that about having that balance and designing what business is it you want to have, and how can we help support you to get to that point. So exciting times for sure, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Ross, thanks ever so much for agreeing to come back on to podcast. We might maybe not leave it sort of two and a half years next time, but uh thanks ever so much for the time. Thanks for agreeing to come back on and uh yeah, just giving a good account in terms of the academy and uh how that benefits uh a lot of people out there that are looking to get our into an industry. So uh yeah, thanks very much for your time. Yeah, cheers, my pleasure. Thanks for that, Ross. Thanks for agreeing to come back on the podcast and talking about Fear Academy. Great to get you back on and probably won't leave it as long next time. So, yeah, if you are thinking about becoming a mortgage broker and looking at finding out more about Fear Academy, then get in touch with Ross or I through LinkedIn or any other means and we'll have a chat with you about what it is, get into a bit more detail, get into more detail about the program, uh commercial aspects of it, and all that kind of thing as well. So please feel free to get in touch. If you listen to podcasts, liked it. As always, please leave a review, please share it with other brokers. And uh, thanks for listening, thanks for watching, thanks for subscribing, and as always, please do not forget to run your own race.