Mortgage Broker Broadcast
Developing your knowledge to help you build a successful Mortgage Broker business. Craig Skelton shares his thoughts and experiences on all aspects of mortgage advice covering everything from operating in the banking world, estate agency based advisers all the way up to working as a self employed broker. He will be joined by experts from within the industry and other business sectors which all play a key part in becoming a successful mortgage broker in the modern world.
Mortgage Broker Broadcast
Round Pegs & Square Holes: Finding Your Perfect Fit in the Mortgage World
When Jonathan Needham first entered financial services as a teenage cashier at Nationwide Building Society, he could never have predicted the three-decade journey ahead. After struggling to balance his till and constantly putting notes in the wrong slots, Jonathan found his true calling in advisory roles—a path that would lead him through leadership positions at major organizations before eventually establishing his own firm.
In this deeply insightful conversation, Jonathan returns to The Mortgage Broker Broadcast after nearly four years to discuss how the mortgage industry has evolved—and where it's falling short. He articulates a powerful critique of today's training landscape, lamenting the disappearance of comprehensive development programs that once nurtured new talent. "The training was first class, the investment that the business made into people's development...I don't really see that these days anymore," Jonathan reflects, highlighting the aging broker population and questioning who will guide the next generation.
What emerges most clearly is Jonathan's passionate belief that relationships within the mortgage industry need fundamental reform. He describes brokers trapped in "loveless marriages" with networks that over-promise and under-deliver, treating professionals as mere "numbers in seats" rather than valued partners. Through Needham Financial and his collaboration with Cornerstone Network, Jonathan is working to create an alternative model built on "servant leadership" where brokers receive genuine, long-term support rather than just transaction-focused interactions.
Whether you're considering entering the mortgage industry, feeling stuck in your current arrangement, or looking to build sustainable value in your brokerage, Jonathan's candid insights cut through industry jargon and short-term thinking to reveal what truly matters. Ready to run your own race rather than someone else's? This conversation might be your starting line.
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Hi and welcome to this week's the Mortgage Broker broadcast. My guest this week is Jonathan Needham from Needham Financial and I wanted to get him back onto the podcast. He was on the podcast quite some time ago. I've known Johnny Needham for quite a period of time. We both worked together at Sequence and he came back on the podcast came originally on the podcast back in June 2021. So he's not been on for near enough four years and, yeah, I think a lot's happened to him in the time.
Speaker 1:Obviously, the industry's changed so much over the lot that since we last caught up with Jonathan and I just wanted to get him back onto the podcast just to have a catch-up in terms of what he's been doing and just have a bit more of a discussion around the mortgage industry. Last time we talked about recruiting advisors and about recruiting experience and things like that, but this time I just wanted to get an update on him but then also just have a chat about the mortgage industry in general and, yeah, let's just get Jonathan onto the podcast. So welcome back onto the podcast, mr Jonathan Needham. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm very well, craig. Thank you for having me back and, as you've just said, four years since our last one. Four years I was trying to work out earlier on this morning how long ago it was and yeah, time flies when you're having fun.
Speaker 1:It certainly does mate it certainly does and, like I said, the brief chat we had before we hit record that was, 9th of June 2021 was when the podcast went.
Speaker 2:Is that when it was?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 9th of June. So the podcast went, is that when it was? Yeah, 9th of June? So, yeah, just short of four years ago. But like you said, look at it's hard to like sort of think about four years. What's that? 208 weeks, is that about right? My calculation is about right sometimes. Yeah yeah, 200 weeks of your life has gone since you were last on the podcast, so which obviously we're going to get into that I appreciate you coming back on the podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to having a catch up in a chat about from a fellow south yorkshireman originally.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, proud of the one mentioned football and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:We're not going to talk about anything to a football. Probably leave that. Yeah, yeah, we'll leave that out. So for those people that don't know who you are, do you want to just do a brief introduction?
Speaker 2:yeah, um. So jonathan needham, uh, as you say, being in this industry now, coming up, uh, I think, for three decades, uh, believe, believe it or not, I know it's frightening, isn't it? Um started as a wet behind the ears, 18 year old for nationwide building society, uh, as a cashier, um, and I was rubbish, um at doing that because, um, I didn't put the money in the right slots and all that sort of thing and I could never balance me till at the end of the night and it used to drive the people there crackers. But then at that time they were just developing this different way of working within the building society and that was having customer advisors actually in the banking hall in the banking hall. And they gave me the opportunity and I didn't, I didn't look back really and had a cracking 15 years in the end with nationwide doing different roles was a mortgage advisor, financial consultant, and then, for some bizarre reason, I moved into sales management and that's when I started going grey.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, the environment started changing a little bit Left there, went to work at Connells running financial services within an estate agency environment. That's where, obviously, you and I first met, ended up doing five years there, successful years. Then had a spell with LSL, which I think is where I was at when we last spoke, working at Primus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, primus, yeah, yeah, I was at when we last spoke working at Primus, yeah, Primus yeah, yeah, I was as an RSD for Primus and then, I think, as we started coming out of lockdown, I think a lot of people started re-evaluating their own situation and decided to go self-employed at that point, set up a business consultancy and decided to go self-employed at that point, set up a business consultancy. My main sort of contract was with a local network and the last probably three, three and a half years has been spent supporting that network's growth, supporting that network's growth, and then that sort of relationship came to a natural end towards the back end of last year, and now myself and my brother are doing something together in the guise of Needham Financial with the support of Cornerstone Network. So, yeah, that's been the last 30 years.
Speaker 1:The last three decades. So, when you look back and think, when you were sort of talking then about Nationwide and the current balance, until, at the the end of the day, notes in the wrong way, not right to get the notes the wrong way around. So, bearing in mind, I worked at the co-op bank years gone by, I started out in retail and, yeah, I remember I would never run cashier duties very rarely and when I was the cash like she were looking at my notes going and I was the manager of the branch. So, bearing in mind, I was the manager of the branch. So, bear in mind, I was the manager. Sometimes you went on to the tills and you did everything else. Yeah, you're covered. And I come like the chief cashier. She's sort of going she'd like inspect my notes. The £10 is not the right way around, but in terms of they were made for those roles.
Speaker 1:When you talk about your transition into sales and the way your career has progressed, you were never born to be a cashier. Never I learned good discipline with being a cashier. I was wanting to make sure that my till ball ended at the end of the night and my notes were in the right way around and all the rest of it, but I was never built for being a cashier, and clearly you wasn't either. So no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:And uh, I look back now and I think, um, I've always been incredibly grateful uh to, uh, my area manager at the time, a chap called dean puddy fat um, who, bizarrely, is now my father-in-law, uh, but that's another story altogether. Yeah, so, and yeah, I suppose Dean saw something in me and realised, you know, because it could have ended then because, as I say, it was not great, but, yeah, probably right time, right place. I think that's been the case in a few instances. Really, as I look back, and I mean, I was given the opportunity but, in fairness, you know, it was my own ability and dedication and graft, really that sort of. You know, I have repaid that investment from people over the years.
Speaker 2:But I think, looking back, what I would say we had some great times over the 15 years I spent at Nationwide. It was a great environment, the training in particular was first class, the investment that the business made into people's development, and I don't really see that these days anymore. You know, there's a real gap, especially in our industry, you know, and it's very much an aging industry. You've only got to look at mine and your faces to realize that and you kind of think, well, who's going to blood the next generation of mortgage brokers. Where are they coming from? I don't really see the banks and building societies recruiting. Like I say, I don't really see the training and support that used to be available. So and that's. I think there's genuinely an opportunity there. So, but yeah, we had some good times, some good laughs.
Speaker 1:I think I agree, matt, in terms of when you look at it, it was just more like now is obviously more.
Speaker 1:We need to generate income, we need to justify we've taken these boards, these investors is like there's various levels and layers that you have to go through and I think what I like and we I don't want to jump into the podcast too much in terms of what I wanted to talk to you about, what we are going to talk about, but the thing is with us is that we have come from that environment.
Speaker 1:So we have seen it done first time. We've seen it done in a first class kind of way of training, development that will never leave us as individuals. So what we're doing now totally separate from what we're obviously we're not working together, but in terms of what and I want to explore in terms of what you're doing at need and financial now but when you look at what we do and how we work and how we support and help brokers in every part of their journey, whether they're just starting out, or the good thing is that we haven't lost, that We've still got bills to pay, we've still got mortgages to pay, we're still running businesses, that balance sheet and a profit and loss and forecasting.
Speaker 2:However, fundamentally, we are here to help and support mortgage brokers to be better brokers 100% be better brokers 100% and, I think, appreciating the fact that we operate in a regulated environment, right. So if you're a broker in the UK, you need to be authorized to trade. Then you can do that, generally speaking, in one or two ways. You can either be directly authorized with the FCA or what most brokers do is they establish a relationship with a mortgage network or mortgage and protection network and, as we both know, there's a number of different networks out there of all different shapes and sizes. I think, fundamentally, all a network is is a service provider like gas or your electric or your mobile phone or whatever. It's there to provide you with a platform to trade, access to l that they're going to be able to make sure that the advice you're giving is right, the cases that you're putting together are compliant. So it's there to keep you safe. And I think, above that, in my opinion, there doesn't really seem to be many networks out there who really provide anything over and above those sort of fundamental things. Platform to trade, access to lenders, will do you compliance, will reconcile your commission, and I think when you're talking about a broker or a brokerage that know what they're doing, that's probably all they really need. But if you talk about a newer to industry broker, somebody who's just finding the feet, let's say, like I was all those years ago, I don't really see anybody really who provides that added value, who will invest that time in coaching and training and doing it properly. There is a lack of that is because you need to have a bravery, in my opinion, because you're not necessarily going to see a return from that individual for a period of time. So as a consequence of that, the amount of time and effort and investment that you're making to that individual you're not going to see a return on immediately. And I think we live far too much in the short term and there isn't enough focus on the medium to long term.
Speaker 2:Equally as well, I don't think brokers, generally speaking, are seen as people. They're just seen as numbers in a seat. And you know the feedback I get from different places would suggest that although I'm self-employed running my own firm within a network, I feel like I'm employed again. I feel like I'm employed by this entity who, at the end of the day, just providing me with that platform to trade um and I'm not necessarily getting that, that added value. You know um network turns around and says oh, by the way, we're going to put your fees up without really justifying the reasons as to why. Um, but yeah, what we're trying to do, I think, in our own way, our own small way, is plugging that gap that exists within the industry whereby there is an opportunity for whether it's new to industry, returning to industry, whether it's focusing on brokers who currently trade as registered individuals within AR firms, and sometimes that's, you know, even worse, because those types of brokers have got two people's hands in the wallet or the purse you know the network and the ar firm and they're sat there wondering what am I getting for this? And I think there's an awful lot of promises made initially We'll give you leads, we'll provide you with admin support, you know.
Speaker 2:And actually the reality, when push comes to shove, you don't get any of it. You're just left to your own devices, and I think it's got the potential to be quite dangerous as that, because you know you're a broker, you're not entirely sure what you're doing. You really need some support. You might engage with somebody who's going to provide you with leads. You're desperate for leads, uh, because the firm that you're working in, although they promised you a load of leads. They've not necessarily delivered on that. So you hook up with an accountant, let's say and I'm generalising now and the accountant starts passing your stuff over You've not done an appropriate level of due diligence Some of the applications you've submitted, you've unwittingly submitted them and potentially it's fraud and you get struck off by a lender's panel. Then there's a domino effect and it's game over and it's not necessarily the fault of the broker. It's because they've not been provided with that right sort of induction into the industry, because there's too much of a focus, in my view, on it's headcount targets, getting people up and running quickly, without necessarily realizing or recognizing, should I say, the importance of investing in the long term and providing that, um, you know, proper support, training, coaching.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, you and I uh used to spend quite a lot of our time in observations with brokers, certainly back in the Connells days, and I always knew that the broker never particularly appreciated me being sat on their shoulder.
Speaker 2:But I don't think there's anything wrong in that. You know what I used to call touchline coaching. You know you don't necessarily need to sit and observe from. You know, are they covering off all the points in the IDD in the right order and what have you, but focusing more on things like body language and word pattern, how they say things, how the customer is reacting to what the broker is saying, and you know that old-fashioned sales skills essentially, and I think there's a massive gap, you know, in the industry Currently. I was over in Stockport on Friday with a firm, a recruitment firm, integro, sat with Johnny and Will over there and you know we were saying exactly the same. And if somebody comes along and does this seriously and certainly need them financial, with the support cornerstone you know this is something that we're trying to champion I do believe it could completely change the game for brokers.
Speaker 1:Definitely, to be honest with you. I 100% agree with you, because I talked about it on my podcast so many times before about the over-promising, under-delivering, the whole sort of selling you the role, not seeing it as a long-term thing. Because you've got to get into your head whether you're a broker, a business owner, small firm, sole trader, large firm, it doesn't really matter. You're doing this for the long term. Everything that you're doing it, you're not doing it for the short term. You're not going to take cmap and go through cmap one, two and three, then start to learn about the industry, then start to worry about getting cash, like I said, getting the role plays done or the observations done and having the annual stuff and all the stuff that comes with being a broker. You are not going to do that. To go do you know what? I'm in this for two years. I'm going to earn loads of cash and then I'm out of here. You ain't going to get your return on investment. Your return on investment is long term. So when you and and I think that is there'll be a lot of brokers listening to this because I, you speak to them. I speak to them that are sat, that have been sold the role they are an ri. Don't get me wrong. There are some amazing firms out there that offer a lot of help and support, built on solid foundations, have got our eyes and done it from the ground up and done it a really good way.
Speaker 1:There are a lot, though, in contrast to that, that just even though they are, because they've been treat as a number by their firm when they were right, all right, they then decided to go and set their own firm, so they think, actually, that's acceptable, that's how I'm gonna, how I was trapped, I how I was. I'm going to treat my team, my firm, the people in my firm. I'm going to treat them the same way. So over-promising, under-delivering, micro-managing, long contracts in terms of 12 months notice and you've got no pipeline paid out on, and all the things that I'm seeing now where people are getting tied into because they're naive and they don't know.
Speaker 1:They think that's when the current industry, they don't know any better because think, well, that's just pretty standard, whereas, like you say, there are so many brokers out there to forget the scary and risk stuff with regards to clients, placing cases, complaints and and all, and do it and not doing the right thing. Forget that. But I know there's so many brokers that are part of firms or even gone. I know these firms are individuals, have gone to networks paying a lot of monthly fee out, never sold a mortgage before in their life, not not getting any help and support. But the small network is taking the £500, £600 a month saying thanks very much for that. That's our business model. We'll recruit loads of brokers paying that amount of money.
Speaker 1:If you leave, then well, we're going to charge you a six-month fee for leaving. So we're going to get at least three and a half grand out of you. Thanks very much.
Speaker 2:Crack on on kind of thing and if you win, you win. If you sink, you sink. That's driven. I think that's driven a lot by people's general motivation for creating an entity, shall we say. So if people's motivation is to just make a few bob, then they don't care about the individual, do they no? If your general motivation and mine and I know yours is as well is to genuinely help people, then as a consequence of that you're going to have more people interested in having a conversation with you about what it is you're doing.
Speaker 2:But I take an awful lot of satisfaction and pride in working with brokers, seeing them grow and you know I could go through a list as long as my arm of people who have started with me as brand new to industry, and I've supported them. I've helped them grow, got them in a position where they've got their own firm, I've helped them grow that firm and now they're very, very successful leaders of their own business, multi-broker operations doing incredibly well, and that gives me a real sense of pride and satisfaction. My main motivation for doing what I do is to try and help brokers grow and as a consequence of that, you know, I can then create an element of personal income for myself, but that's not the leading reason why I want to do it. It's a bit like going back to when I were on the tools. The main reason I would be very passionate about recommending protection was I was motivated to try and protect as many people as I possibly could, and as a consequence of doing that, there is then naturally, a payment of commission for doing that, but my main motivation was I just wanted to protect people. Similarly, now, my main motivation is to provide brokers with a platform where they are safe because, as we were saying, I think longevity is really, really important, as is recognising that we're in a regulated environment, but they're also in a place where they are treated as people, and if they need support with growth or if they need support with developing multiple income streams or getting better at understanding how to have the protection conversation with a client, you know we'll do that.
Speaker 2:It's not just about stacking numbers up and having bums on seats and, you know, trying to be the fastest growing or the biggest. It's not about that, because that really doesn't mean anything. Does it To the brokers, in my opinion anyway? No, exactly so, and yeah, there is.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of brokers out there who are perhaps in what you might refer to as a loveless marriage, a loveless relationship, but they can't get out, they're trapped or they feel trapped. The perception is that they're trapped because the host whether it be an AR or a network or whatever it might be, but the current host is putting things in place that make it difficult to leave, and I think fundamentally that's wrong because, as I said about a service provider, if you want to move where you buy your gas from, that's quite easy, isn't it? Yeah, you know, you're not happy with your current supplier, you just switch to somebody else. Similarly, mobile phone network should be exactly the same, and I think if it was easier, then the quality of support and the value that brokers would get would look completely different than it currently does.
Speaker 1:I get, from a business point of view with regards to protection, when we talk about protection, the thing of clawbacks and you've got somebody that can then leave and you've got the liability for their clawback for the last four years of the protection sales. There is a business protection side of things with regards to clawbacks, contracts, people leaving, people switching networks. However, there are ways and means of sort of doing things, things like novation, so novate the whole pipeline of protection across. I've been through novation myself. I work with a broker that come on board with my firm and we've novated their protection.
Speaker 1:That wasn't a seamless process. That was a hard process, but that should be easier. That should be easier to then go right. These are all the sales under this agency code and the level above now sits there rather than sitting there. They're responsible for the clawbacks, responsible for the advice, and how that works is a little bit different, but it should be easier. I think it will get easier.
Speaker 1:It has to get easier and I think networks have to appreciate and understand that there is going to be changes over the next 10 years. There's going to be changes within our industry as ai becomes more prolific and smoother processes and things like that the networks have got to look to change and adapt now with processors and things like that. The networks have got to look to change and adapt with this situation and adapt with the industry as a whole. They should be the forefront of this because they are the people who they've got the most piece of the pie, haven't they? The networks have got, like, I say, advisor Prime has got Openwork have got over 3,000. They are big pieces of the pie within this industry, I think you're right, it shouldn't.
Speaker 2:I think part of the issue is technology and legacy systems. So when you speak to providers, moving a liability from one environment to another should be a lot more straightforward than it is. The reality is that the providers have a difficulty in, you know, legacy systems have got. But I have to say in my experience this is where relationships play the part and we've got some cracking relationships with the providers and we've got some cracking relationships with the providers and we can put them on notice to say you know, this broker's moving from here to here. We really want the novation process to be as simple and as smooth as possible. Can you give us a hand? I'd really appreciate that. You know, and if you've got a really good relationship with somebody human nature in it, they're more likely to do you a favor and you'd like to think that as technology improves, processes such as novation should get easier.
Speaker 2:I think part of the challenge really is there have been recent examples where broker wants to move from one environment to another. Naturally, the network or environment that the broker is moving from needs to provide a reference. Uh, it's a regulated reference, so they've got 30 working days to provide it and the network turns around and says well, we're going to purposefully be difficult and provide it on day 29. And you think why? Just because I'm going to be difficult and I don't want you to leave and I'm going to make it as hard as I possibly can to try and get you to change your mind. That, fundamentally, is wrong, isn't it? Yeah, exactly as we both know, mate, that kind of thing does happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you talk about motivation. That's quite a perverse motivation and, as a consequence, there are brokers who are sat, like I say, in loveless marriages. We don't want to be here but we can't get out, or we're scared. We don't want to be here but we can't get out, or we're scared. We don't want to run the flag up the pole because we might have our legs chopped off at the knees and that's going to knack on us cash flow. And you know I've got bills to pay and this, that and the other, and so people just go. Oh, I'll not say anything, I'll not rock the boat. Go. Oh, I'll not say anything.
Speaker 1:I'll not rock the boat. I'll just keep my head down and stay where I am, and that's the thing, like I said, the more positive way of providing the help, providing support under promising and over delivering and doing all the things that you say you were going to do from the start and treating people how you want to be, treat yourself. That's a massive, rather than sort of saying, right, I'm going to take your legs off and I'm going to hold you like I'm not going to do the reference until day 29. It's like what's the point?
Speaker 1:And if the shoe was a foot, they would have been that way, say, if they are, and that's an RI that's looking to leave, and part of the network was treating them that way. Maybe they are and that's the problem, maybe they aren't. Their network is, maybe they're not, but that's just how they're treating. It's just not right. They'll be complaining about how the network's tre on some keyboard on some facebook group somewhere, saying anonymously this is atrocious, I'm trying to leave the network, and but then they're treating their individuals like that as well. Well, break the chain, break the cycle, do something about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think that's where we come from in. As much as you know, I do tune in massively to this sort of principle of abundance. There's enough for everybody, you know, and I think that's one of the reasons why you and I have got such a good relationship. You might think, well, we're in direct competition with each other. I don't think we are, and again, it's relationships. I went to an event yesterday chatting to the CEO of another network and we were saying exactly the same thing. You know, wouldn't it be better, for the greater good of this industry, if there was an increased amount of collaboration, we could work more closely together? We're not necessarily at war with each other, you know. I don't know how many brokers are in the industry, but there's a lot, isn't there? And naturally we work with that network. There. The propositions are slightly different, but we can all coexist. The propositions are slightly different, but we can all coexist.
Speaker 1:Do you think it goes back to something that we talked about before we hit record? We had a bit of a conversation before. Do you not think it just goes back to the security of the individual's mindset, to think actually, like you say, you and I, I've got a firm I'm recruiting. Obviously you've got a firm you're recruiting. Are we in direct competition? That would never enter my head because I'm comfortable in my space in terms of what I do. This is who I am as a firm, this is what we offer. I've got another proposition if that don't quite fit. So these, these are the three business models that I work to. If none of those three business models work, then fine, I have a chat with John and Edom he might have one that has all chat with us.
Speaker 1:As a person who might have, I'm not sort of thinking right, yeah, I'm going to get, I'm going to over that we don't do, and then when they then join, you're then having to unravel it all, creating the drama, creating the chaos, creating all those things that, and the resentfulness as well. It's like what's the point? Like but? But it's about the security of the individual. That is, the ceo or running that firm, who is the name of that particular business and they come and they secure in terms of those people as human beings. Well, if they are, that's a good place to be because actually they will tell you and that they have got the abundance mindset is a massive thing, mate yeah, I, I think so.
Speaker 2:And again, I think it comes down to motivation and why we do what we do. And you know, something else that I believe strongly about is this whole concept of servant leadership. You know I exist for the broker's benefit. I am here to serve you. We are just a service provider. What do you need? How can I help you? How do you want our relationship to be structured? How much do you want me to be involved in your life, day to day? Some firms just want leaving alone. Some people want you to be involved almost on a day to day basis. But I think you're right.
Speaker 2:Going back to what you were saying about a certain environment might not be right for one person. Fewer really good friends of mine are in the process of taking their own firms, directly authorized, and there's been a few instances recently where I've said to some individuals I think it might be worthwhile having a conversation with this person, because what they're looking at building could be right up your street. I've always been a big believer that you put a round peg in a round hole and a square peg in a square hole, and I know that's something really simple to say, but it doesn't have to be complicated. It really, really doesn't. And I just think the industry's at a point where it feels I think if I was a new to industry, broken now, I'd feel very overwhelmed by who do I speak to? Where do I go, what do I do? I was chatting with a guy called Michael O'Brien, yeah, and Mike's looking at trying to develop a relationship with one of these training firms that puts people through the CMAP. And then you've got your CMAP, you've got your badge that says I've got CMAP. Then where do you go? Because that's when the real fun starts.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think what Mike's looking at developing is some kind of academy kind of concept. And I remember speaking to him about that and it really switched a light on for me because, you know, almost creating some kind of legacy to the industry how good would it be that there's almost a physical academy that exists for people to go. And naturally you know it's not for free. You know we're not necessarily a charity, but what we're not going to say to people is all right, you pay us 1,500 quid and then we're going to completely forget about you and let you make some silly mistakes and then you'll not be able to work in the industry again, but really fully justify what that framework looks like, from getting your C-map to submitting your first case, to progressing through to competent advisor status to you know, so on and so forth. And I just think there's a definite, definite gap. And I think the more people like you and I, michael O'Brien, the lads at Cornerstone New Leaf, the network I was speaking to yesterday, the more people like us who are talking about this positive impact that we can have, the better.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, and it doesn't just stop with the new to industry. It might be an established broker, let's say, who is very proficient at writing mortgages and isn't quite sure how to start bringing the protection conversation into the fact find you know and really need some support with that, or they might not necessarily have capacity to have the conversation. So what might be right for that particular firm or individual is to bring somebody in alongside them who will just deal with the protection they deal, deal with the mortgages. That person deals with the protection, or there's a referral process where they pass the opportunity on to somebody else. Or it might be the broker who's looking at developing multiple income streams and focusing on commercial finance or wealth or wills and estate planning. Where do we go with that that? Where do we start looking for that? Um? And that's about investing in that individual, in that firm and provided them with that track to run on, not just in that first two years, for the next 15, 20, 20, 25 years. You know, sitting down and speaking to a firm principle and really understanding why they're doing what they're doing.
Speaker 2:What's your exit? I'll speak to people day one, ask them well, what's your exit? People think or say to me well, why are you asking me that? We haven't even started a relationship yet. But it's really important that we understand that so then we can structure whatever it is you want to build accordingly.
Speaker 2:How many brokers just walk past the opportunity of providing the clients with general insurance? Just walk straight past it because they think the initial margin on the sale isn't worth it? Yeah, and yet 70 percent of gi automatically renews. So if at some future point you want to build something to sell it, well, having a gi book would be a really, really good idea. Yeah, uh, and it also built a trail. Similarly, the obsession that we seem to have where we have to take all our protection commission up front. Why? Well, cash flow. Okay, get that. But what about mixing it up? Take 50% up front, take 50% of it on the drip. Maybe your bigger premiums you'd take on a non-indemnity basis yeah, then you're building up value in your business. Um so, and yeah, like I say, I think self need and financial cornerstone, some of the other people that we surround ourselves with, these are the types of conversations that we have with people because we genuinely want to help them. It's not a transactional relationship.
Speaker 1:No, it's not a what's in it for me kind of conversation. It genuinely isn't and because, like you say, there's people you have conversations with that won't fit with you, vice versa. But it's about that. Yeah, the long-term the thing is you've got whatever you're doing within this industry. It's a long-term thing. So, like you say, things like like I shall broke about, well, just take on non-indemnity. I don't even know what that is, what you're talking about, kind of thing. And these are brokers with other networks. You're thinking, how can you not know what this is? And, yes, like you say, you've got cash flow forecasts and it's about income and things like that, especially when you're starting out.
Speaker 1:But it's just having that open eyes of quickly. It's about getting your head up and having a clear picture and clarity for the long term. But as quickly as you can get your head up, so not having the two years of clouding and mistakes and making errors and things like that. It's a case of right. Well, I've been on the cut, I've done my semen. Now I know what my options are in terms of business model. I know clearly what those are. Right, I'm going to go down that route because that fits with me best. How quickly can I get my head up and start running and running the race that I want to run, rather than having my head bogged down for the next two years because I'm actually running this person's race here, because I'm an AR of that network, ri or even directly author.
Speaker 1:Whatever the case may be, it is a case of having clarity of what you want, where you're going, and getting your head up and giving you that from the start. But we don't like that though, do we, john? It's a case of we create a lot of smokes and mirrors as start, but we don't like that though, do we generally? Case of we create a lot of smokes and mirrors. There's an industry we create a lot of jargon, a lot of bull, a lot of oh, it's impossible to get cast.
Speaker 1:Is it like what is casting? There's a lot to strip back, but I think you're absolutely right, there's that should be that one place to give that clarity to individuals, to go and help them make an informed decision for themselves, to then know, actually, if I go that route, that's what the next five, ten years is going to look like. And then think actually, because all you want to do as a broker is make the right decision where your home is, what firm, what that looks like, as soon as you possibly can. Well, if you're coming off a c-map, these massive decisions is there's so much, so much clouds in terms of we?
Speaker 2:I don't think. With respect to the individual broker, they probably don't know what questions they need to ask no, they don't.
Speaker 1:And, to be fair, I had a discovery call with a guy last night and I said that exactly thing, you don't know what you don't know. And he's like exactly, and he's just got his CMAP one in hand, that's it. He's gone to a network so he's got full CMAP. Now he's gone to the network. They're charging him 600 quid a month. And he said but I'm getting nothing like I don't know what, I don't know I don't what kind of thing, which is good for me, because obviously then I get a client that I'm working with. But it shouldn't be that way, it shouldn't be a case of, it shouldn't be like that from the start. But I see people don't know what they don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And again it goes back to that short-term attitude of there's an opportunity for us to recruit a broker here, let's tell them what they want to hear, to get them through the door, and then, yeah, they're just left to it. And it's not right, really, because if you make the wrong decision initially and you need to reverse out of the environment that you've ended up in, it's not easy. No, it's stressful, it's distracting, it's going to have an impact on what you're doing regarding your day-to-day with your clients. It's going to impact your cash flow. It's not something that happens overnight. We're saying novation process and all these other weird and wonderful things. I've always thought financial services has got its own language, hasn't it? There should be a phrase book. It's like translation quick guide to financial services, abbreviations, nonsense, work, novation, what? Why don't we just call it transferring your, your liability? But anyway, that's another point.
Speaker 1:Um it is mate, absolutely. I think we just love that, don't we?
Speaker 2:well, I think some people play on it, don't they a little bit. Yeah, they do. It makes things sound really complicated, because I know I'm going to talk in abbreviations, so I've no idea what I'm talking about whatsoever. And yeah, again, it's happening less and less, I think again it's it's happening less and less, I think, um, but you know, it's a very, I think, old-fashioned approach that financial services has taken and I genuinely believe there's an opportunity for it to be defrosted. Um, and you know, we lift the curtain and let people actually see that it's not complicated. It's quite straightforward actually, when you strip it back. And, as I said right at the start, you need a platform to trade on, you need people to speak to, you need customers, clients, so you need a lead source. I think we've been blessed with social media, you know 2025.
Speaker 2:Brokers these days have got the ability to organically grow lead sources. You can buy leads from different people, as we know. Or you go down the more traditional, established route of having a relationship with estate agents or people like that, but you need people to speak to and then it just builds from there. It's not complicated, it really isn't, but to begin with, you need the right sort of support around you. You need people, in my opinion, who are going to tell you the right thing initially, so you don't make a mistake, you don't end up in, like I say, a loveless marriage.
Speaker 2:Divorces are never easy. Are they mate really? Definitely not. It can be quite costly and stressful, but sometimes, you know, we don't always get it right first time and as a consequence of that, I think you know the industry needs to really think about how easy it makes it for brokers to have this sort of freedom of movement. And, you know, if not necessarily happy in one place, I can just switch and, as I said, if it was easier, I'm absolutely convinced the quality of support and the level of service and the added value that brokers would be getting would look completely different to what it looks like. And I I am generalising, I must admit, like I said, there's some fantastic places out there, but I have to say the vast majority of people I speak to, you know, are telling me that you know where they are. They're not necessarily getting what they were promised.
Speaker 1:No, I agree with you 100%. Like I said, there are some amazing firms out there, amazing networks doing what they say they're going to do and backing that up. So I think, like I say, it's a challenge to change. Try and get it right the first time as best you can, but, yeah, the whole process should be a lot easier. So, definitely, yeah. Yeah, johnny, we've been talking for nearly what? 40 or nearly 50 minutes, so we've still filled the podcast in terms of that time. Yeah, good, thank you so much for coming to come back on. I know you're busy no, that's all right.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate the invite, mate um, and if you know, listening to me and you with your own, uh, if it helps at least one person, then it's been time well spent, I think yeah, definitely, and it won't be four years next time before we're back on, because I think, in terms of what we're, talking about.
Speaker 1:I think things will develop so we've got to get you back onto the podcast sooner than yeah, just let me know. Fine, all right, I will. Uh, yeah, thanks very much coming back on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see you, mate. Cheers buddy, thanks, bye, bye thanks for that.
Speaker 1:Jonathan, thanks for agreeing to come back on the podcast. It was really good to catch up and get your take on the mortgage industry and it was good to have a chat around that. So, yeah, thanks very much for your time and hopefully we won't leave it four years next time for you to get back on the podcast. And if you are thinking about becoming a self-employed mortgage broker or you're looking to set up your own brand and business, or you're just looking to accelerate the growth of your existing business, get in touch. See my website, craigskeletoncouk. Book a discovery call, send me WhatsApp. Let's just have a chat about how I can help and support you achieve your goals in 2025. And, as always, please don't forget to run your own race.